Criminal actually. He deserves to be cancelled just for not citing D'Alembert alone.
Calling history nerds 🚨🚨🚨
Which historical figure(s) would you put on your hear me put cake?
I would put Thaddeus Kosciuszko and Ulysses S Grant on ofc :) (They can also be someone just for goofiness)
hear me out cake example:
Tag people!!! @allysah @tommy-288 @tompoose @maip--macrothorax @rosemeriwether @pranklinfierce @chaotic-history and everyone else :)
Oh boy, this'll be interesting 😅 Thank you @macaron-n-cheese and @mexicanwanderingsoul for the tags!
Shockingly I don't have many historical figures I'm into that way, but I think the few I do have all count as hear-me-outs, so here's my cake:
In my defense for putting de Sade here, sometimes his desperate horny rambling is kind of Pathetic. De Tocqueville is just very pretty with the grabbable waist and sad wet brown puppy eyes (+ bonus points for having very good opinions on the Puritans), and then I have to include my wife ofc <3
Tagging: @estomia, @enlitment, and anyone else who wants to do it 😅
oh dear 😅 I'm not sure thanks is the right word to use here, but thanks for the tag @chaotic-history!
Behold, my Hear-me-out cake:
- Denis Diderot - a pretty lousy husband but 1700s no. 1 girldad (maybe along with Aaron Burr). Every source I've read went on and on about how charming he was. His writing's pretty funny. Plus someone I could bitch about Rousseau with. Letters to Sophie are still among the most beautiful ever to be written.
Plus relevant grasp of female anatomy confirmed by primary sources.Do you see my vision? - Mark Antony - look, if we take Plutarch's word for it, there's potential. Whatever dynamic they had going on with Cleopatra - the horribly un-Roman one - seems genuinely fun. Plus there's the whole Curio story to keep in mind.
I bet he'd look good in a stola. - Gaius Valerius Catullus - sigh, you knew this was coming. Whiny, but by all accounts a great poet. Takes no prisoners with his writing. Plus his daddy's rich.
- Camille Desmoulins - he seems to have been really charismatic and I do share a lot of his views? Plus, a talented writer. Plus, I'd trust that Lucile would have had a decent taste.
- John Polidori - underrated. A doctor. Has that early 1800s romantic look down. And the sad wet cat energy is all there.
tagging @edwardscissorfeet @trzepotttt @marcusagrippa @theghostofbean @tunathena (no pressure ofc!)
in the 1700s did voltaire fans ever beef with rousseau fans
My guess would be that the average person would probably didn't know about a lot of the things that went on between them?
Not even Rousseau knew it was V who outed him re: supplying orphanages and a lot of the things would be in their letters which didn't always get published
Though some of the stuff did get published. Candide for instance, though I'm not sure how many people would pick up on it. Also pretty sure Letter to d'Alembert re: theatre in Geneva (code for: men used to be men before and now women rule the world in their fancy clothes, boo) would be discussed and would divide people (and it was clear which side V would be on).
I can totally see team Voltaire x team Rousseau discussion coming up in one of the Parisian cafés, plus there's also the clock.
(I do have a batshit example of JJ fans' behaviour in regards to Denis though, who is smeared in the Confessions much more than Voltaire is...)
wait what happened with JJ fans and Denis?
okay, I'll bite! (she says as if she wasn't hoping that someone would ask)
My note from when I first read it back in the summer says:
Cited from Diderot et Rousseau: une amitié impossible by Gerhardt Stenger
(do excuse the probably poor translation I had German as a third language in high school instead and now I have to make do with DeepL and such)
('bewitched'? 'his soul in his lips'? really?)
Listen, my girl Evelyn B. Hall didn't have to go so hard when describing how The Encyclopédie project got started in her Friends of Voltaire but she did. And I think it's beautiful.
the only other early 20th-century female author whose work reads exactly like something you'd find on ao3 (in a good way!) is Stasia Przybyszewska herself.
Denis Diderot, Jacques the Fatalist (trans. David Coward)
"He's just like you fr fr" - Diderot
Denis Diderot, Jacques the Fatalist (trans. David Coward)
new tumblr game. put in the tags a GENUINE flaw your fav(s) has. cant be something like "too kind" or "loves too much" like something genuinely bad messed up morally wrong they are or have done
Hi! I just found your blog via your post about lord Hervey and I love all your insights about 1700s gender and sexuality!
I'd be curious to know if you've ever came across Diderot's d'Alambert's Dream trilogy? It's not often discussed but I feel like there are some really interesting things going on in regards to 18th century gender and sexuality – in the second and especially in the third dialogue.
I can't fully wrap my head around it but I thought it was fascinating (and also really odd at times). I'd love to hear your thoughts!
anyway, have a great day ~
I hadn’t read it but I have now and I do have thoughts.
The Second Dialogue: d'Alembert's Dream and the One-Sex Model
The second dialogue includes a discussion about the nature of biological sex. Bordeu says to Mlle de Lespinasse:
Ill swear, Mademoiselle, you thought that as you were at the age of twelve a woman half your present size, at the age of four half the size again, as foetus a small woman, in the ovaries of your mother a very small woman, you thought you had always been a woman in your present shape, so that it was only your successive increases in size which have made the difference between what you were originally and what you are to-day. (Dialogues by Denis Diderot, translated by Francis Birrell, p63)
Here Diderot is referring to the theory of preformation. Proponents of preformation believed that organisms developed from miniature versions of themselves. There was two competing theories of preformation; Ovism in which the fetus was thought to come fully formed from the egg and Animalculism in which the fetus was thought to come fully formed from the sperm.
(for an overview on preformation theory see The Weaker Seed. The Sexist Bias of Reproductive Theory by Nancy Tuana)
[Illustration of a fetus fully formed in the sperm from Essai de Diotropique (1694) by Nicolaas Hartsoeker]
Bordeu dismisses the theory of preformation:
Nothing, however, is falser than this notion. First you were nothing. You were, to begin with, an imperceptible point, formed of smaller molecules, scattered in the blood, the lymph of your father and mother. (Dialogues, p63)
Mlle de Lespinasse didn't just think she was, in the ovaries of her mother, a fully formed person but a fully formed woman.
Historian and sexologist Thomas W. Laqueur argued that historically there were two models for understanding sex: the one-sex model and the two-sex model.
The two-sex model posits that sex is binary. That male and female are two distinct groups with no overlap. In this model intersex people are understood to be either disordered males or disordered females. In 1741 the physician James Parsons wrote that those who are reported to be "hermaphrodites" were "either perfect Men or Women, having only some Deformity or Disease in the Parts of Generation." (A Letter from James Parsons, M. D. F. R. S. to the Royal Society) Its important to note that the two-sex model has been, and still is, used to justify the medical abuse of intersex people.
Diderot seems to have believed in what Laqueur calls the one-sex model. The one-sex model posits that there was only really one sex: male. The female was seen as a "mutilated" or "less perfect" male.
Proponents of the one-sex model believed that male and female sexual characteristics were homogeneous. Ancient Greek physician Galen believed that the female sexual organs were an inversion of the male. He asks his readers to imagine the "uterus turned outward and projecting":
Would not the testes [ovaries] then necessarily be inside it? Would it not contain them like a scrotum? Would not the neck [the cervix and vagina], hitherto concealed inside the perineum but now pendant, be made into the male member?
Galen concluded that “you could not find a single male part left over that had not simply changed its position.” (Making Sex by Thomas W. Laqueur, p26)
Galen believed that "the female is less perfect than the male for one, principle reason because she is colder". He theorised that sex determination was caused by heat and that woman's genitals "were formed within her when she was still a fetus, but could not because of the defect in the heat emerge and project on the outside".
The theory of heat causing sex determination dates back to Aristotle who believed that "the female is, as it were, a mutilated male". He theorised that the lack of heat prevents the embryo developing into it's "proper form" (i.e. male).
(for Galen and Aristotle's theories on sex determination see The Weaker Seed. The Sexist Bias of Reproductive Theory by Nancy Tuana)
Diderot interestingly has Mlle de Lespinasse flip the sexist assumptions of Galen and Aristotle suggesting that "Man is perhaps only the freak of a woman". (Dialogues p69)
Much like Galen, Diderot highlights the homogeneous nature of sex:
the womb is nothing else than a scrotum turned outside in, a movement in the course of which the testicles have been thrown out of the bag which shut them in and dispersed right and left in the cavity of the body: that the clitoris is the male organ on a small scale. (Dialogues p70-71)
Diderot is not completely off the mark, modern science shows that sex is homogeneous. However modern scientists do not consider the uterus to be homogeneous to the scrotum. Whats interesting is that Diderot differs from Galen on the point of what is homogeneous to the penis. Galen believes that the vagina is the penis inverted while Diderot states that the clitoris is penis on a small scale.
[Anatomical illustrations of a vagina from De Humani Corporis Fabrica (1543) by Andreas Vesalius. Note that the vagina resembles a penis.]
Nathaniel Wanley in The Wonders of the Little World (1678) follows the Galenian model telling sex-change stories in which the vagina inverts and turns into a penis. In one story a woman changes sex on her wedding night. Wanley explains "those parts which were inverted on and conceal'd, began to appear, and she rose in in the Morning of a contrary Sex." In another story a girl is "wantoning in bed with a Maid" when "it fell out". When her parents were informed her name was changed to John "and from thenceforth she wore the habit of a man."
In contrast Giles Jacob in Tractus de Hermaphrodites (1718) writes that "the Clitoris in Women suffers erection and falling in the same manner as the Penis in Men" and that in cases of an enlarged clitoris women "may divert themselves with their Companions, to whom for the most part they can give as much Pleasure as Men do."
The 1725 edition of the popular 18th century anti-masturbation pamphlet Onania: or, the heinous sin of self-pollution claimed that in "Vigorous and Lustful" woman who had "given up themselves to the Practice of Self-Pollation" the clitoris could become "Inflated to the exact likeness and size of a human Penis erect".
In the one-sex model it's understood that there is a spectrum between male and female. Giles Jacob in Tractus de Hermaphrodites posits that there are five kinds of "Hermaphrodites". Diderot cites women with large clitorises and eunuchs as examples of sex being a spectrum:
women with the clitoris overdeveloped grow beards: that eunuchs do not have any: that their thighs grow broader, their haunches larger, their knees rounder: that, in losing the characteristic organism of one sex, they seem to hark back to the characteristic conformation of the other. (Dialogues, p70)
Laqueur believed there was a shift from the one-sex model to the two-sex model during the early 18th century. Laqueur's theories have been subject to criticism by those who believe it to be over-simplified. Laqueur's critics point to evidence that suggests both models existed concurrently throughout history rather that one completely supplanting the other. (for an overview on the one-sex/two-sex theory see The Century of Sex? Gender, Bodies, and Sexuality in the Long Eighteenth Century by Karen Harvey)
The Third Dialogue: the Conversation Continued and Sexual Pleasure
The third dialogue deals with the topic of sexual pleasure. In this dialogue Diderot is argues that there is no benefit to chastity and that pleasure is both positive and natural.
Bordeu argues in favour of masturbation; "these actions are not so unprofitable. It is a need and, even if one were not driven on by the need, the thing is always agreeable." He also argues that masturbation is natural:
Nature tolerates nothing useless. And then can I be blameworthy in helping her, when she calls for my help by the least equivocal of symptoms? Let us never provoke her, but occasionally lend her a hand: in refusal and idleness I see nothing but stupidity and loss of pleasure. “Live simply,” I shall be told, and “tire yourself out.” I understand. I must inflict on myself pain in order to ward off pleasure. A very happy notion! (Dialogues, p105)
This is notable for a period when anti-masturbation rhetoric was prevalent. Onania: or, the heinous sin of self-pollution not only argued that masturbation was sinful but that it had adverse health effects including epilepsy, hysteria and impotence. Even Jeremy Bentham writing in defense of same-sex sexual acts repeats the notion that masturbation has averse health effects:
Compared in this respect with the solitary mode, whatsoever difference there is, is clearly and eminently in favour of the social. That to their attachment to the solitary mode victims in large numbers, and of both sexes, are continually self-sacrificed is a proposition of which the practice of medical men, and even their advertisements, bear but too ample testimony.
Bentham even argues that one of the benefits of same-sex sexual acts is they lessen masturbation:
Beneficial effect the second. - Prevention of the injury liable to be done to health and strength by solitary gratification. Under a foregoing head the danger to health and strength by the social unprolific mode had been shwen to be comparatively at least, if not absolutely, nothing, while mischief in the same shapes from the solitary mode is notoriously but too abundant.
(Of Sexual Irregularities - or, Irregularities of the Sexual Appetite)
Bordeu also defends same-sex sexual acts on the same basis of his defense of masturbation. Both acts give pleasure:
Two actions are equally confined to the realm of pleasure; they can afford pleasure only, nothing useful; but one of these actions gives pleasure only to the person who practices it: the other enables the pleasure to be shared with a similar person either male or female, for here neither sex nor even the use of sex is relevant.
But Mlle de Lespinasse is stuck on "those combinations, which all seem to me contrary to nature."
Bordeu argues:
Nothing which is can be against or outside nature. I make no exception even for voluntary chastity and continence, which would be the first crimes against nature if one could sin against nature, and the first of crimes against social laws in a country where actions were weighed in any other balance than that of fanaticism and prejudice.
Diderot is arguing that the crime against nature (i.e. sodomy) isn't actually unnatural. He was not the only one to make this argument.
At his 1776 sodomy trial Gerrit van Amerongen stated that men who engaged in sodomy were "born with it and they can be as amorous to each other as man and wife can be." (The Chevalier d'Eon, Rousseau, and New Ideas of Gender, Sex and the Self in the Late Eighteenth Century by Anna Clark)
On the 13th of November 1816 Anne Lister records in her diary a conversation with one of her lovers where she defends her sexual interest in women:
I urged in my own defense the strength of natural feeling & instinct, for so I might call it, as I had always had the same turn from infancy. That it had been known to me, as it were, by inclination. That I had never varied & no effort on my part had been able to counteract it.
In his 1749 defense of sodomy Thomas Cannon writes:
Unnatural Desire is a Contradiction in Terms; downright Nonsense. Desire is an amatory Impulse of the inmost human Parts: Are not they, however constructed, and consequently impelling, Nature?
However the crime against nature also referred to bestiality which is the focus of the third dialogue. Diderot really only briefly touches on the topic of same-sex sexual acts seemingly more interested in discussing bestiality and the merits of breeding half-goat half-human slaves. I haven’t seen this topic mentioned anywhere else and have no particular insights into it.
Thank you so much for such a detailed answer!
It's great to be able to put the dialogues into broader 18th century context, and I will definitely look into some of the sources you have cited.
idk something about the way this 1906 bio somehow manages to hit the beloved fanfic trope
The way this sounds like a perfectly general philosophical aphorism but if you consumed enough enlightenment drama you realise it's actually a well-aimed call-out of a *certain* former friend --
To say this anecdote about Catherine the Great and Diderot lives in my mind rent-free is an understatement. In fact, it's probably achieved landlord status by now:
@lafcadiosadventures -> you get me, right?
this is what it's like to study 18th century philosophy btw, in case you were wondering:
— Voltaire and the Century of Light, A. Owen Aldridge
you know what, he's right, I wouldn't like a statue of V staring at me judgily either
Okay is it just me or does this police report on Diderot low-key make him sound like your typical YA novel protagonist?
(full disclosure: reading d’Hémery's notes in Darnton's book back in February was my gateway to Diderot)
may your headcanon also get affirmed by an academic article ✨
I gave up on d’Alembert SORRYYY
Life imitates art etc etc.
1. Young Woman Admiring Denis Diderot's Portrait, Louvre, Courtesy of a (very patient) friend, 2024
2. Young Man Admiring Denis Diderot's Bust, Jean-Simon Berthélemy, 1700s
(it's from May but mentally I'm still there)