mouthporn.net
#zeus – @deathlessathanasia on Tumblr
Avatar

@deathlessathanasia / deathlessathanasia.tumblr.com

Greek mythology enthusiast with some interest in ancient Greek religion and an unfortunate love for pedantry and nitpicking.
Avatar
Anonymous asked:

Were Metis and Zeus friends?

Idk? All Apollodoros' Library (Apollod. 1.2.1) says is that Zeus, when he reached maturity (ἐγενήθη τέλειος), took her as a συνεργόν (helper, coworker, companion in work, fellow-worker, accomplice, colleague, associate, work partner) and she gave Kronos a pharmakon that made him vomit the children he had swallowed. As far as I can tell the language used doesn't suggest any particular intimacy beyond the idea of two people doing something together. Later on (Apollod. 1.3.6) she tries to avoid his sexual advances but he rapes her and then pulls a Kronos on her, so whatever friendship they might or might not have had probably ended there, one imagines.

Hesiod on his part gives no details about their relationship in the Theogony (Hes. Theog 886-900) and only says that Zeus made her his wife after he became king and that he deceived her and "put her in his belly" when she was about to give birth to Athena, in order to avoid the birth of a dangerous child but also that she would devise on his behalf both good and evil. In the fragment describing the births of Hephaistos and Athena attributed to Hesiod by Chrysippos and preserved by Galen (Hes. Fr. 343 M-W)) we learn that, after Hera gave birth to a child without him, Zeus got Metis to "lie with" (παρελέξατο) him, apparently by tricking/deceiving (ἐξαπαφὼν) her ( though if you go with the reading "even though she twisted much" instead of the emendation "even though she was very shrewd/wise/knew much" force might also have been involved) and then swallowed her because he feared that she might give birth to something stronger than the thunderbolt.

In the scholia to Iliad 8.39 it is said that he swallowed her when she was pregnant with the child of a Kyklops, "wanting to possess her for himself" (βουλόμενος παρ ἑαυτῷ ἔχειν), no mention of him fearing the birth of a child from her as in the other versions. This is less relevant but I'm mentioning it for the sake of thoroughness, in the Pseudo-Clementine Recognitions and Homilies Metis is on multiple occasions described as the daughter of Zeus, apparently swallowed by him as a child. I have no idea how this last one came to be.

So were they friends? You decide.

Avatar

Guys, did you realize that if you combine the version found in Hesiod's Theogony where Zeus takes Leto as a consort and has children with her before he marries Hera who, on her part, is not mentioned as persecuting Leto in any way and the version found in sources like the Homeric Hymn to Apollo or Kallimachos' Hymn to Delos where Hera, already involved with Zeus and with grown children by him at the time, does persecute the pregnant Leto you end up with a version where Hera tries to punish Zeus's partner even though she wasn't even married to him at that point? Such a crazy bitch! What do you mean that's not the proper way to analyze something?

Avatar

You can tell that Hesiod was BFFs with the Muses because not only is Mnemosyne the only consort of Zeus in the Theogony whom he is said to have loved (ἐράσσατο), but also the only one whose sexual union with him is provided with any meaningful details since we are told both the location where it took place and how long it lasted.

Avatar

Guys, did you realize that if you combine the version mentioned in Book 1 of the Iliad where Hera, Poseidon and Athena try to bind Zeus and no punishment is mentioned for any of them for this rebellion with The version in the Iliad scholia where Hera, Poseidon and Apollo try to bind Zeus and all of them are punished for it you end up with a version where Athena alone is not punished for rebelling against Zeus?! Such favoritism! What do you mean that's not the proper way to analyze something?

Avatar

Regarding the exceptional strength of Herakles

I constantly see it claimed that Herakles owes his extraordinary strength to the fact that Hera breastfed him, but so far I have been unable to find a single source stating this. Here are a few that mention Hera unknowingly nursing Herakles (or other sons of Zeus), in no specific order:

Pseudo-Eratosthenes, Epitome 44: "It was not possible for sons of Zeus to have any share in the honours of the sky unless they had been suckled at Hera's breast; and that is why Hermes, so they say, brought Heracles along after his birth and placed him at Hera's breast, for him to be suckled at it; but when Hera became aware of it, she thrust him away, and the rest of her milk spilled out accordingly to make up the milky circle."

Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomy 2.43: "There is also a circle in the heavens which is white in color, and which men have called the milky circle. Eratosthenes recounts in his Hermes that Hera unknowingly gave milk to the infant Hermes, but when she came to realize that he was Maia's son, she pushed him away; and that is why a bright trail of spilled milk can be seen among the stars. Others have said that Heracles was placed at Hera's breast while she was asleep, and she acted as has just been described when she woke up. Or according to other authors, Heracles was so greedy that he sucked in so much milk that he could not keep it in his mouth, and what spilled out from his mouth is shown in this circle."

Diodoros of Sicily, Library of History 4.9.6-7: "After Alcmenê had brought forth the babe, fearful of Hera’s jealousy she exposed it at a place which to this time is called after him the Field of Heracles. Now at this very time Athena, approaching the spot in the company of Hera and being amazed at the natural vigour of the child, persuaded Hera to offer it the breast. But when the boy tugged upon her breast with greater violence than would be expected at his age, Hera was unable to endure the pain and cast the babe from her, whereupon Athena took it to its mother and urged her to rear it And anyone may well be surprised at the unexpected turn of the affair; for the mother whose duty it was to love her own offspring was trying to destroy it, while she who cherished towards it a stepmother’s hatred, in ignorance saved the life of one who was her natural enemy."

Pausanias, Description of Greece 9.25.2: "There is shown a place where according to the Thebans Hera was deceived by Zeus into giving the breast to Heracles when he was a baby."

(Geoponika 11.19 -Concerning the Lily: "When Jupiter had Hercules by Alcmena, who was mortal, he wished to make him partaker of immortality; and he laid him to Juno's breast, when she was asleep, while he was in the state of infancy; and the infant being satisfied with milk, turned away from the breast, but the milk spewed copiously when the infant was removed-; and what was difused in the sky made what is called the milky-way; and what flowed on the earth and tinged its surface, produced the lily, which is like milk in respect of colour."

None of these suggest, let alone state outright, that Herakles got his strength from Hera. In the Dionysiaca Hera is forced to breastfed Dionysos, and the benefit he is said to get from this is not strength, but access to Olympos (and a cure ffrom madness?): "Do not fail your provoked husband; but go uncaught to the fertile slope of the woodland pastures of India, and offer your breast to Bacchos as once did my mother Rheia; let him draw with his lips older grown your holy drops, and by that draught lead him on the way to Olympos and make heaven lawful ground for the feet of earthborn Dionysos! Anoint with your milk the body of Lyaios, and cleanse the ugly stains of mind-robbing disease. And I offer you a worthy reward; for I will place in Olympos a circle, image of that flow named after Hera's milk, to honour the allfamous sap of your saviour breast."

The only explanation I've found for Herakles' strength is this, From Diodoros of Sicily's Library of History 4.9.2: "Consequently the sources of this descent, in their entirety, lead back, as is claimed, through both his parents to the greatest of the gods, in the manner we have shown. The prowess which was found in him was not only to be seen in his deeds, but was also recognized even before his birth. For when Zeus lay with Alcmenê he made the night three times its normal length and by the magnitude of the time expended on the procreation he presaged the exceptional might of the child which would be begotten."

So does anyone know of a source for this idea? Plz help, I'm feeling gaslit by the world!

Avatar

“They tell the story that after Zeus had sex with [Lamia], Hera turned her into a beast and further, when she went crazy, she ripped out her eyes and threw them into a cup and, in addition, that she ate flesh and dined on human beings. It really could have gone this way: Zeus, who was a king, got intimate with her because she was pretty. Then Hera abducted her, gauged out her eyes, and left her on a mountain. For this reason she was living a painful life and had no help at all. Because she was living unwashed and unhealed in desolate places, she seemed to be a beast.”

Avatar
Anonymous asked:

When Aphrodite is the daughter of Zeus where would you place her in the birth order of the younger gods?

In the Library of Apollodoros Dione is Zeus's third consort (after Hera and Themis) so Aphrodite is one of his eldest children. Assuming that all the children of Hera (Hebe, Eileithyia, Ares) and Themis (Eirene, Eunomia, Dike, Klotho, Lachesis, Atropos) were born before Zeus took Dione as his partner, then Aphrodite would be at most his 10th child, older than gods like Persephone, Athena, Apollo, Artemis and Hermes. Pseudo-Hyginus' genealogical lists in the Fabulae can be all over the place, but he lists Jupiter's divine children in this order: Venus (by Dione), Mars (by Juno), Minerva (by himself), the Graces (by Eurynome), Juventas and Libertas (by Juno), the Horai (by Themis), Proserpina (by Ceres), the Muses (by Moneta), Pandia (by Luna), Mercurius (by Maia), Apollo and Diana (by Latona). So here Aphrodite appears to be his first child. In Diodoros of Sicily, Library of History 5.72.5 we get this list: "To Zeus also were born, they say, the goddesses Aphroditê and the Graces, Eileithyia and her helper Artemis, the Hours, as they are called, Eunomia and Dikê and Eirenê, and Athena and the Muses, and the gods Hephaestus and Ares and Apollo, and Hermes and Dionysus and Heracles." Of course the order may be more or less arbitrary and they might not be supposed to be arranged in chronological order in this list, but whatever the case, Aphrodite is mentioned first.

I do prefer her to be older than the other children of Zeus who are members of the dodekatheon at least, as a nod to her alternative origins as offspring of Ouranos on one hand and to the theory that Dione (or a goddess she derives from) might have been the original consort of Zeus on the other.

Avatar

Look, I get being baffled by timeline incoherence in Greek mythology, but the existence of a version in which Hephaistos is born in response to Athena's birth and one in which he assists Zeus in giving birth to her isn't that confusing. These two versions never appear in the same source; Hera giving birth to Hephaistos in retaliation for Athena's birth was in fact not the standard/most common version of events and more often than nnot Hephaistos was older than his sister/cousin; in multiple sources Zeus gives birth without needing an axe to the head; several other figures are on occasion said to have assisted Zeus with the birth of Athena even if none were as popular as Hephaistos in that role. It's not that difficult to make sense of this, actually, regardless of which birth order you prefer for these two.

Avatar

Hesiod used two different origins for the Fates in the Theogony, but I have yet to see anyone assume that this must mean Zeus and Themis had a threesome with Nyx the way some assume that Nonnos' using two different origins for Pasithea/the Graces in the Dionysiaca must mean that Hera and Dionysos slept together.

And mind you, we're talking about the Dionysiaca here, where Ariadne is killed once by spear and once by Medusa's head, where Aphrodite is sometimes the daughter of Zeus and sometimes of Ouranos, where Aphrodite gives birth to Eros immediately after she is born from the sea and also gives birth to him during her marriage to Hephaistos.

An ancient Greek text need not be 100% internally consistent. The Theogony is not, the Iliad is not, the Dionysiaca is most certainly not.

This reluctance to even consider that an ancient Greek text doesn't have to be 100% internally consistent is also the reason why the idea that Hephaistos must have been thrown from Olympos twice is so popular, although it is quite obvious that those are two alternative versions of the same event even if both appear in the Iliad, and subsequent accounts of Hephaistos' fall use either one or the other, never both. As far as I know no later author takes the fact that His fall from Olympos is related twice in the Iliad in different ways to mean that he was thrown one time by Hera and a second time by Zeus.

It's not like that would be the only instance of inconsistency in the Iliad, either. In Book 14 Hera tells Aphrodite that she was entrusted by Rhea to Tethys and Okeanos to be raised while Zeus was fighting and imprisoning Kronos, and it's pretty clear from the language used that she was a child at the time. A few lines later, however, we are told that Zeus and Hera slept together for the first time without the knowledge of their parents - parents, not just mother, not caretakers; the word used is τοκῆας = parents, begetters, derived from τίκτω = bring into the world, engender, beget, bring forth, give birth to, bear. These can hardly refer to anyone but Kronos and Rhea, their parents in the Iliad as well as everywhere else.

Avatar

There was once in Attica a certain Periphas, of earth-sprung stock, who lived there even before Cecrops, son of Earth, had emerged. He ruled the men of old and was just, rich and pious. He made many sacrifices to Apollo and numerous were his fair judgments. No one could reproach him with anything. His leadership was willingly accepted by all. Because of the pre-eminence of his good works, men took away honours due to Zeus and decided that they belonged to Periphas. They set up sanctuaries and temples to him and addressed him by the name of Zeus the Saviour, the Epopsios (Overseer) and Meilichios (gracious). Zeus, indignant, wanted to incinerate the entire household of Periphas with a thunderbolt, but Apollo asked that he should not be utterly annihilated since he had been assiduously honoured by Periphas. This Zeus granted to Apollo and he went on to the house of Periphas and caught him in converse with his wife. He pressed both hands on him and turned him into a bird, an eagle. His wife asked Zeus to turn her into a bird too so that she would be a companion for Periphas. So he turned her into a vulture. Zeus granted Periphas certain honours for the piety he had shown when he was human. He made him king of all birds and gave him the task of guarding his sacred sceptre, together with the right of approaching his throne. To the wife of Periphas, whom he had turned into a vulture he granted the privilege of being a sign of good omen in all the affairs of mankind.

- Antoninus Liberalis, Metamorphoses § 6. Periphas

Avatar

The idea that Zeus forced Athena to stay a virgin is very funny when you take into account that there are several references to him trying to marry her off against her will.

Oh, and strangely enough the source for this idea is apparently the passage in Book 3 of the Argonautica of Apollonios Rhodios where Athena says that her father begat her to be a stranger to eros, which quite obviously is a reference to her (usually) asexual birth. The connection between a lack of sex in Athena's origins and her lack of involvement in the matters of eros was adopted by other authors as well, such as Nonnos who at some point during Book 42 of the Dionysiaca has her described like this: "Athena was born without weddlock and knows nothing of weddlock", and Kolouthos who has Aphrodite say the following about Athena: "And how vain is thy vaunting, Atrytone! whom marriage sowed not nor mother bare, … And how, covering thy body in brazen robes, thou dost flee from love and pursuest the works of Ares …"

It does seem like quite the stretch to assume that any of this must mean Zeus purposefully genetically engineered an "asexual" child for nefarious purposes. Not that one can't choose to interpret things this way if one wants, but claiming it as a fact that Zeus forced Athena into eternal virginhood remains dubious and lacking in solid evidence.

Avatar

"When Jupiter had Hercules by Alcmena, who was mortal, he wished to make him partaker of immortality; and he laid him to Juno's breast, when she was asleep, while he was in the state of infancy; and the infant being satisfied with milk, turned away from the breast, but the milk spewed copiously when the infant was removed-; and what was difused in the sky made what is called the milky-way; and what flowed on the earth and tinged its surface, produced the lily, which is like milk in respect of colour." (Geoponika Book 11, XIX -CONCERNING THE LILY)

Avatar

„And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them; for the father of men and gods released him from his bonds.”

This pasage from Hesiod's Works and Days is most probably a later interpolation, but a tradition in which Kronos was freed from Tartaros and became ruler over the Islands of the Blessed did exist even if not in Hesiod's time. Pindar also makes reference to it and places Rhadamanthys by the side of Kronos. Anyway, one has to wonder how the siblings of Zeus felt about him not only pardoning their father but allowing him to live in such a beautiful and comfortable place.

Anyways, how about less Greek myth-based fiction where "the Titans are back and want revenge!" and more stories where Zeus and Kronos come to terms with each other and put a stop to the intergenerational strife so prevalent in their family? I think that Zeus restoring Kronos to kingship even on a smaller scale could be one of the various steps he takes to avert and subvert the succession myth every chance he gets.

Avatar

"There is a story that when Heracles the son of Alcmena was sacrificing at Olympia he was much worried by the flies. So either on his own initiative or at somebody's suggestion he sacrificed to Zeus Averter of Flies, and thus the flies were diverted to the other side of the Alpheius. It is said that in the same way the Eleans too sacrifice to Zeus Averter of Flies, to drive the flies out of Olympia." (Pausanias, Description of Greece 5.14.1)

This is so funny to me for some reason. God save us from flies!

Avatar

I'm so upset that Homeric Hymn 1 to Dionysos is in such a fragmented state because just look at this part where Zeus discusses Hephaistos with Hera:

“.  .  .  you wish. How could you suffer more shamefully? I too acted foolishly  .  .  . .  .  .  Hephaistos left on his own  .  .  . .  .  .  as they assume forever  .  .  . He tricked you, binding you in chains from Tartaros. Who, my dear, can free you? A painful belt wraps around your body, while Hephaistos pays no mind to command or plea, but devises firm resolve in his heart. Sister, you bore a cruel son  .  .  .  . crafty though lame  .  .  . .  .  .  before his feet  .  .  .  good  .  .  . .  .  .  he rages  .  .  . .  .  .  angry  .  .  . Let us see if he will soften his iron heart at all. Two smart sons of mine are handy to help in your troubles—Ares is one, who wields a sharp spear, a tough fighter  .  .  . And there is Dionysos  .  .  . But Hephaistos better not start a contest with me or he will stagger away struck by my lightning.

I'm intrigued. Yes, we do know the story from other sources, but there are interesting details here. What exactly did Zeus do that he needs to admit that he too acted foolishly? What's up with the reference to Hephaistos leaving on his own? Why does Zeus suggest Ares in addition to Dionysos as a potential helper of Hera? Is he trying to be subtle and not make it too obvious that he is taking advantage of Hera's vulnerable position to make her accept his son? How interesting that he calls both Ares and Dionysos clever! Does he normally call his wife "sister"? (ok I'm joking about this last one)

You are using an unsupported browser and things might not work as intended. Please make sure you're using the latest version of Chrome, Firefox, Safari, or Edge.
mouthporn.net