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Probablea

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The part in 'innocence' where Tuvok hands a scared 8 year old a gun and leaves after giving her instructions which are literally JUST "aim like this and press here to fire" is so interesting for his characterization because it isn't ILLOGICAL (she needs protection from a potentially life-threatening entity and he needs to leave for a moment) but it's also something that I don't think most other characters would think to do because. You know. It's giving a phaser to a child.

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I know I'm like decades late to the party and SNW is out and all but I think the events of "The Menagerie" would be even more interesting if Pike and Spock DIDN'T have a particularly close interpersonal relationship because I remember watching that episode and being a bit curious about why Spock would risk SO much for this man who, in-episode, I don't recall ever having any special bond portrayed with Spock. Spock, in that episode, is more the eager ensign than anyone of special importance and the episode doesn't set any scene aside to show that Pike has especially warm feelings towards him.

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I hate when Chakotay is watered down to be Janeway's yes man because their disagreements are actually very interesting. [A lot of rambling analysis of this debate in particular below]

#J/C is not interesting to me when they're strifelessly playing house or Chakotay is her lovesick yesman who'll do whatever she says#Kathryn Janeway#Chakotay#I really wish they'd kept up this kind of tension between the crews and used Tuvok/Janeway/Tuvok as like a microcosm of that tension#it'd be so good!!#Tuvok#<- he's there too#chara analysis#star trek voyager#st voy#Is this the only episode they call the ship 'The Voyager' ??#Also hearing Harry call Tom 'Mr Paris' is funny - early seasons voyager you have my heart early seasons voy supremacy#ANYWAY - that's beside the point#I do like how the maquis v starfleet tension is handled in this episode#I love how we see everyone start working together and relationships begin to form#How once B'Elanna shows her stuff Janeway is almost immediately intrigued and excited & how B'Elanna feeds off that excitement#The Doctor: -annoyed annoyed complaining complaining snarky comment- ugh I can't believe I have to help with something STUPID#Kes: You're very sensitive aren't you~? /gen /pos#The Doctor: ???? um ..... haha. idk. anyway I'm glad I could help :)#'how can we be seeing a reflection of something that we hadn't even done yet?' Voyager I love you MWAH#Tom Janeway B'Elanna: -temporal mechanics- / Harry: .... so how do we get out???#SUUCKS that in later seasons B'Elanna & Chakotay's relationship isn't focused on anymore but I mean. Every poc is pushed aside in later#seasons. But here you can see how much Chakotay believes in her and wants her to succeed!!! No wonder she likes him so much#He was probably one of the first people to really believe in her and SHOW IT and now Janeway's doing the same thing <3#My above post may paint Janeway somewhat negatively but it's only in the 'character flaws and being wrong about things means you have#a chance to grow' way - as soon as B'Elanna shows her potential Janeway wants to encourage it#God B'Elanna's so pretty#I forgot Seska was on the bridge!#'many of your teachers thought you had the potential to be an outstanding officer' SOMEONE SHOULD HAVETOLD HEEEER!!!!!!!!#WHY DID NO ONE TELL HEEER!!!!!
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Obsessed with the total lack of progress Tuvok & Tom make with each other in the episode 'Gravity', especially in this scene. Typically with two characters in an episode together, especially with tension, you'd expect for them to grow closer and reach a new understanding of one another and this feels like the scene which SHOULD be just that: Tuvok finally opening up and Tom being able to understand him - but that doesn't happen. First of all, Tuvok doesn't open up fully. He does reveal quite a lot about himself which he would normally consider deeply private. I'm sure for him this sort of admission is horrendously shameful but even when admitting to it he cannot help but hide the truth in an effort to paint himself in a slightly more flattering light. He says "I chose to leave her," when it's shown in episode that Tuvok was disowned and essentially left for dead by his father and it's kind of a tragedy because I'm sure THAT would be the thing that Tom could connect to!!!!

Tom has also, much more recently, gone through this sort of 'losing everything' hell where he lost his place in the world and his father abandoned him. Granted, for Tom the reasons were criminal in nature but it's shown throughout the show that Tom was pressured by his father from a very young age to grow up to be the ideal Starfleet Man he thought Tom should be. (Perhaps Tom wouldn't have even felt the need to lie about the error if it hadn't been for this pressure - though that could also be twisted the other way. If the importance of Starfleet Integrity and Doing What's Right hadn't been drilled into him so much he might have just 'kept his mouth shut' and been home free, as he said. Tom's inability to commit to one or the other is an important part of his character to me - just like how he cannot completely give up on wanting to be loved and valued in a system he pays lipservice to not caring about and how he says he hates his father while also clearly longing for his approval) Tom's complete and utter failure to be the Starfleet Officer[tm] his father wants mimics Tuvok's, far more willful, failure to adhere to his father's Vulcan standards. Oh, but also? Tuvok's father is also in Starfleet.

We know for certain that Tuvok's father was on the Yorktown when Tuvok was serving under Sulu in 'Flashback'. I assume that this, in conjunction with Tuvok (in this same episode) saying he himself only joined Starfleet under pressure from his parents is implying that his father is a member of Starfleet in some way. What his rank and role was and whether he stayed in Starfleet is unknown but it, again, IS stated outright by Tuvok that he was pressured to join Starfleet - as was Tom.

Neither of them wanted to join Starfleet and they were both willing to join in order to gain approval from them. If I may speculate for a moment, I think they both probably felt like failures. Tuvok with his teenaged rebellion and Tom with what seems like his entire existence. Tuvok failed his father once, spectacularly, so gravely that he was severed completely from him and I'm certain that a parent cutting off ties as perceived punishment for behavior (this is how Tuvok phrases it - 'because I will not obey, my father abandoned me') would deeply affect a person. Especially a child. I also imagine it would make them think thrice about doing anything else that warrants punishment in that person's eyes. Tom seems to have always been a disappointment to his father, at least in his mind. He shares this sentiment multiple times - how he was scolded for crying, scolded as never finishing anything, had his interests deemed 'pointless'....in 'Persistence of Vision' the only thing Tom can imagine is his father berating him, telling him he can't do anything right and is always destined to fail. This is of course only his perception of his father but it shows how terribly devoid of support and love their relationship was that this phenomena which shows everyone else scenes of comfort, love, and home - can only show Tom hatred and derision. You might think it'd show him a stereotypical hot babe or his father actually praising him but it seems the episode implies, at least to me, That that's the only thing Tom (at this point) can truly get lost in, truly believe. Hatred and derision. Under these circumstances it's no wonder the two of them want their fathers' approval so damn much. They dedicated YEARS of their lives studying at an academy for a job they didn't even WANT only for it to go to shit. Tuvok quits and Tom is kicked out. But therein lies the difference between them. Tuvok QUITS and Tom is kicked out. The timeframe is also different - Tom worked himself up to the rank of lieutenant and seemed to be ready to keep on going while 'Flashback' occurs during Tuvok's very first deep space mission and he's already certain he'll quit as soon as they return and he makes good on it. There's a certain resolve Tuvok has that Tom lacks, and that's not me trying to insult the guy - I'm just looking over the facts. There's no point in which Tom rejects his father, whereas Tuvok rejects his father's wishes twice. Tom says a lot about hating his father and not wanting him in his life and I believe every word of that but the truth of the matter is that Tom is saying all this when his father is already firmly out of his life, when there's no risk of his words putting him further out of favor because hey, how much further out of favor can he get at this point? I like this complexity of Tom's, it feels like a very realistic way someone would react to a stifling, controlling, but very present parent. He only feels able to express negative things about his father when his father can't hear them. He wants to be good, the ideal his father was grooming him to be, but also feels unable to reach this ideal because he's a disappointment to his father - never good enough. It's almost contradictory. Meanwhile, Tuvok seems to have gone in the opposite direction. He's had time that Tom hasn't since The Falling Out and though he spent that time separated from his father ('in seclusion' he says, studying the kolinahr - perhaps, if I can speculate again, in an attempt to become a more Perfect Vulcan....one might say...the Ideal Vulcan, in substitute of a Perfect Starfleet Officer, not that I think Tuvok would do this consciously) One might think that in this time Tuvok would carve out his own path and he does - he becomes a professor of archery on Vulcan, raises a family...but he, very interestingly, DOES come back around to reinforce his father's wishes as true and good.

He's like "It took fifty years of soul searching but I finally realized that my father was right, he was right all along and I was the one who was foolish and wrong." He even asserts that his FATHER'S desire for Tuvok to join Starfleet [like he did] was actually in TUVOK'S 'best interest' - assigning an altruism to the desire that makes it seem like he was morally in the wrong or stupid for his disobedience. It isn't addressed explicitly, the fact that Tuvok's father (explicitly his father, whereas he says 'parents' in 'Flashback' he says his FATHER specifically banished him in 'Gravity') literally left him to essentially go to the temple or die - and the fact that it isn't addressed feeds into the above perception he has of his father. It's fine that his father did that. It was honestly? Good that he did that. It was Right and Tuvok was stupid and selfish and wrong if he at any point felt hurt by it. And this, this implied tendency of Tuvok's to blame himself when his father specifically finds fault with his actions - is very similar to Tom's constant and obvious self-hatred. Tuvok reacts to this with "My father is right and good, I just didn't understand" and Tom reacts to it with "I hate my father, who cares what he thinks?" and yet they both obviously yearn for that paternal approval. They want to be their father's special boy deep down. This is also why I'm saying I'm not insulting Tom's lack of resolve, over the years it's obvious that Tuvok's resolve, when it comes to his father, has also been worn away. It's interesting that Tuvok used to be so rebellious, brash, arrogant in a different way. Bright eyed and not really caring to fit in with others - certain he could forge his own path. Now he's by-the-book, an enforcer, he's come back to the system with a willingness to lay down the law he once bucked against. He seems to be a person who somehow gained positive experiences from these types of things and thus views them as good and doesn't understand why others would view them as bad. His own rebellion has been labeled stupid and bad, in his mind and so in his mind ALL rebellion is stupid and bad. Tom is still in that rebellious phase (it perhaps only just solidified since he was dedicated to following in his father's footsteps before the accident) but he also still cares about his father's opinion of him and so it's perhaps obvious why he'd be so fixated on Tuvok's life. Tuvok is both Tom and his father. Tuvok is the Ideal Starfleet Officer, the Ideal Vulcan, the Perfect Family Man - all in Tom's eyes, and he wants (speculatively) to break that, to show it isn't real or show that it'll crumble under pressure like he did.

Tuvok plays into his perception of himself. He enjoys being seen as above others, separate from them, and at times goes out of his way to cultivate that image - send that message: I'm Not One Of You. So, back to the conversation in 'Gravity' : Tuvok is opening up IMMENSELY in this moment to Tom. He's admitting to something which he sees as deeply shameful, a terrible blight on his life and something which will leave cracks in Tom's perception of him. However, to Tom, Tuvok isn't admitting to anything that bad. He's a Human and a self-described playboy and he's judging Tuvok's admission by his own standards. 'I went crazy over a girl' is probably something he's said before, heard Harry said before, etc. You can really see this in how differently they're speaking in this moment. Tuvok is speaking gravely, talking about how he almost lost himself, how he would have done anything to be with her, and to him this is deathly serious but Tom almost shrugs and goes "What's the big deal?" and perhaps because of that Tuvok seems to become defensive, almost irritated. Tom again doesn't seem to care to explore the statement that Tuvok's emotions, Vulcan emotions, are different from Humans and cannot be held to the same standards and instead asks for the end of Tuvok's story. Then, maybe because of how Tom's behaved up to this point, Tuvok, instead of being honest, lies. He says he "chose" to leave Jara - choosing to better maintain his image as the Perfect Wise Vulcan who knew what was best for himself, who didn't fight with and become disowned by his father, whose school didn't kick him out, who was left with no choice but to join a temple or die. No, instead of that messy truth Tuvok chooses to feed Tom the image of him as better than that, the closest to Perfection he can get at this point and this is the closing of what had previously been opened, just a crack. And Tom's apathetic "Too bad," at hearing this (more unrelatable perfection, the ideal reinforced) is the final click of a lock. It's honestly somewhat tragic and I love that, I love it so much.

#just copypasting prev tags:#star trek voyager#st voy#I hope this is all cohesive and understandable#Tom Paris#Tuvok#chara analysis#voy#star trek voy#the father issues of Voyager.............#star trek Voyager's Gravity you will always be famous#we haaave to talk more about Tuvok's implied relationship with his father and how it could mirror Tom's own#I don't even know if they could actually CONNECT about this bc of how they are but it's agonizing that they can't even see!!!#I can easily imagine Tuvok's stance on his own father making Tom angry and defensive bc TUVOK isn't angry#and this irritates Tuvok and reinforces his own beliefs about his own rebellion from his father...how stupid and childish he must have#looked...just like Tom. and Tom bristles bc there he is - and there's his father again - all in one person#Tuvok [perpetuating the cycle]: Literally nothing's wrong with the cycle. I went through the cycle and I turned out fine so it's fine.#Tom [wants so bad to be in the cycle]: Whatever. I don't even care about the cycle. I hate the cycle actually I'm glad I'm free of it.#I see Tom's father as someone who told his son (explicitly or not) incessantly and at all times that he wasn't enough save for brief period#when he was doing something largely notable and positive from his POV (ex: You got into Starfleet! You made lieutenant!)#Whereas Tuvok's father was someone who in my mind was very kind to Tuvok - was perhaps even a bit indulgent of him but didn't tolerate bein#disobeyed well and would become very cold - leaving no room for discussion#which could result in Tom having a very defeatist attitude about himself 'Why even try? I'm gonna fail anyway'#where Tuvok instead has reconciled these two seemingly disparate images of his father 'warm father' vs' cold father'#by just blaming himself in the instances where his father mistreated or hurt him - he only acted that way bc I did the wrong thing (so he's#right to have done it) - distinctly different from Tom's attitude#I like this bc it makes me think of how Tuvok might treat his own children since he's unwilling to acknowledge any fault with his father's#treatment of him but also didn't necessarily LIKE being treated that way. It also gives me a new avenue of Vulcan fatherhood to explore -#different from Sarek who was seemingly always cold and who Spock never fully reconciled with
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Obsessed with the total lack of progress Tuvok & Tom make with each other in the episode 'Gravity', especially in this scene. Typically with two characters in an episode together, especially with tension, you'd expect for them to grow closer and reach a new understanding of one another and this feels like the scene which SHOULD be just that: Tuvok finally opening up and Tom being able to understand him - but that doesn't happen. First of all, Tuvok doesn't open up fully. He does reveal quite a lot about himself which he would normally consider deeply private. I'm sure for him this sort of admission is horrendously shameful but even when admitting to it he cannot help but hide the truth in an effort to paint himself in a slightly more flattering light. He says "I chose to leave her," when it's shown in episode that Tuvok was disowned and essentially left for dead by his father and it's kind of a tragedy because I'm sure THAT would be the thing that Tom could connect to!!!!

Tom has also, much more recently, gone through this sort of 'losing everything' hell where he lost his place in the world and his father abandoned him. Granted, for Tom the reasons were criminal in nature but it's shown throughout the show that Tom was pressured by his father from a very young age to grow up to be the ideal Starfleet Man he thought Tom should be. (Perhaps Tom wouldn't have even felt the need to lie about the error if it hadn't been for this pressure - though that could also be twisted the other way. If the importance of Starfleet Integrity and Doing What's Right hadn't been drilled into him so much he might have just 'kept his mouth shut' and been home free, as he said. Tom's inability to commit to one or the other is an important part of his character to me - just like how he cannot completely give up on wanting to be loved and valued in a system he pays lipservice to not caring about and how he says he hates his father while also clearly longing for his approval) Tom's complete and utter failure to be the Starfleet Officer[tm] his father wants mimics Tuvok's, far more willful, failure to adhere to his father's Vulcan standards. Oh, but also? Tuvok's father is also in Starfleet.

We know for certain that Tuvok's father was on the Yorktown when Tuvok was serving under Sulu in 'Flashback'. I assume that this, in conjunction with Tuvok (in this same episode) saying he himself only joined Starfleet under pressure from his parents is implying that his father is a member of Starfleet in some way. What his rank and role was and whether he stayed in Starfleet is unknown but it, again, IS stated outright by Tuvok that he was pressured to join Starfleet - as was Tom.

Neither of them wanted to join Starfleet and they were both willing to join in order to gain approval from them. If I may speculate for a moment, I think they both probably felt like failures. Tuvok with his teenaged rebellion and Tom with what seems like his entire existence. Tuvok failed his father once, spectacularly, so gravely that he was severed completely from him and I'm certain that a parent cutting off ties as perceived punishment for behavior (this is how Tuvok phrases it - 'because I will not obey, my father abandoned me') would deeply affect a person. Especially a child. I also imagine it would make them think thrice about doing anything else that warrants punishment in that person's eyes. Tom seems to have always been a disappointment to his father, at least in his mind. He shares this sentiment multiple times - how he was scolded for crying, scolded as never finishing anything, had his interests deemed 'pointless'....in 'Persistence of Vision' the only thing Tom can imagine is his father berating him, telling him he can't do anything right and is always destined to fail. This is of course only his perception of his father but it shows how terribly devoid of support and love their relationship was that this phenomena which shows everyone else scenes of comfort, love, and home - can only show Tom hatred and derision. You might think it'd show him a stereotypical hot babe or his father actually praising him but it seems the episode implies, at least to me, That that's the only thing Tom (at this point) can truly get lost in, truly believe. Hatred and derision. Under these circumstances it's no wonder the two of them want their fathers' approval so damn much. They dedicated YEARS of their lives studying at an academy for a job they didn't even WANT only for it to go to shit. Tuvok quits and Tom is kicked out. But therein lies the difference between them. Tuvok QUITS and Tom is kicked out. The timeframe is also different - Tom worked himself up to the rank of lieutenant and seemed to be ready to keep on going while 'Flashback' occurs during Tuvok's very first deep space mission and he's already certain he'll quit as soon as they return and he makes good on it. There's a certain resolve Tuvok has that Tom lacks, and that's not me trying to insult the guy - I'm just looking over the facts. There's no point in which Tom rejects his father, whereas Tuvok rejects his father's wishes twice. Tom says a lot about hating his father and not wanting him in his life and I believe every word of that but the truth of the matter is that Tom is saying all this when his father is already firmly out of his life, when there's no risk of his words putting him further out of favor because hey, how much further out of favor can he get at this point? I like this complexity of Tom's, it feels like a very realistic way someone would react to a stifling, controlling, but very present parent. He only feels able to express negative things about his father when his father can't hear them. He wants to be good, the ideal his father was grooming him to be, but also feels unable to reach this ideal because he's a disappointment to his father - never good enough. It's almost contradictory. Meanwhile, Tuvok seems to have gone in the opposite direction. He's had time that Tom hasn't since The Falling Out and though he spent that time separated from his father ('in seclusion' he says, studying the kolinahr - perhaps, if I can speculate again, in an attempt to become a more Perfect Vulcan....one might say...the Ideal Vulcan, in substitute of a Perfect Starfleet Officer, not that I think Tuvok would do this consciously) One might think that in this time Tuvok would carve out his own path and he does - he becomes a professor of archery on Vulcan, raises a family...but he, very interestingly, DOES come back around to reinforce his father's wishes as true and good.

He's like "It took fifty years of soul searching but I finally realized that my father was right, he was right all along and I was the one who was foolish and wrong." He even asserts that his FATHER'S desire for Tuvok to join Starfleet [like he did] was actually in TUVOK'S 'best interest' - assigning an altruism to the desire that makes it seem like he was morally in the wrong or stupid for his disobedience. It isn't addressed explicitly, the fact that Tuvok's father (explicitly his father, whereas he says 'parents' in 'Flashback' he says his FATHER specifically banished him in 'Gravity') literally left him to essentially go to the temple or die - and the fact that it isn't addressed feeds into the above perception he has of his father. It's fine that his father did that. It was honestly? Good that he did that. It was Right and Tuvok was stupid and selfish and wrong if he at any point felt hurt by it. And this, this implied tendency of Tuvok's to blame himself when his father specifically finds fault with his actions - is very similar to Tom's constant and obvious self-hatred. Tuvok reacts to this with "My father is right and good, I just didn't understand" and Tom reacts to it with "I hate my father, who cares what he thinks?" and yet they both obviously yearn for that paternal approval. They want to be their father's special boy deep down. This is also why I'm saying I'm not insulting Tom's lack of resolve, over the years it's obvious that Tuvok's resolve, when it comes to his father, has also been worn away. It's interesting that Tuvok used to be so rebellious, brash, arrogant in a different way. Bright eyed and not really caring to fit in with others - certain he could forge his own path. Now he's by-the-book, an enforcer, he's come back to the system with a willingness to lay down the law he once bucked against. He seems to be a person who somehow gained positive experiences from these types of things and thus views them as good and doesn't understand why others would view them as bad. His own rebellion has been labeled stupid and bad, in his mind and so in his mind ALL rebellion is stupid and bad. Tom is still in that rebellious phase (it perhaps only just solidified since he was dedicated to following in his father's footsteps before the accident) but he also still cares about his father's opinion of him and so it's perhaps obvious why he'd be so fixated on Tuvok's life. Tuvok is both Tom and his father. Tuvok is the Ideal Starfleet Officer, the Ideal Vulcan, the Perfect Family Man - all in Tom's eyes, and he wants (speculatively) to break that, to show it isn't real or show that it'll crumble under pressure like he did.

Tuvok plays into his perception of himself. He enjoys being seen as above others, separate from them, and at times goes out of his way to cultivate that image - send that message: I'm Not One Of You. So, back to the conversation in 'Gravity' : Tuvok is opening up IMMENSELY in this moment to Tom. He's admitting to something which he sees as deeply shameful, a terrible blight on his life and something which will leave cracks in Tom's perception of him. However, to Tom, Tuvok isn't admitting to anything that bad. He's a Human and a self-described playboy and he's judging Tuvok's admission by his own standards. 'I went crazy over a girl' is probably something he's said before, heard Harry said before, etc. You can really see this in how differently they're speaking in this moment. Tuvok is speaking gravely, talking about how he almost lost himself, how he would have done anything to be with her, and to him this is deathly serious but Tom almost shrugs and goes "What's the big deal?" and perhaps because of that Tuvok seems to become defensive, almost irritated. Tom again doesn't seem to care to explore the statement that Tuvok's emotions, Vulcan emotions, are different from Humans and cannot be held to the same standards and instead asks for the end of Tuvok's story. Then, maybe because of how Tom's behaved up to this point, Tuvok, instead of being honest, lies. He says he "chose" to leave Jara - choosing to better maintain his image as the Perfect Wise Vulcan who knew what was best for himself, who didn't fight with and become disowned by his father, whose school didn't kick him out, who was left with no choice but to join a temple or die. No, instead of that messy truth Tuvok chooses to feed Tom the image of him as better than that, the closest to Perfection he can get at this point and this is the closing of what had previously been opened, just a crack. And Tom's apathetic "Too bad," at hearing this (more unrelatable perfection, the ideal reinforced) is the final click of a lock. It's honestly somewhat tragic and I love that, I love it so much.

#star trek voyager#st voy#I hope this is all cohesive and understandable#Tom Paris#Tuvok#chara analysis#voy#star trek voy#the father issues of Voyager.............#star trek Voyager's Gravity you will always be famous#we haaave to talk more about Tuvok's implied relationship with his father and how it could mirror Tom's own#I don't even know if they could actually CONNECT about this bc of how they are but it's agonizing that they can't even see!!!#I can easily imagine Tuvok's stance on his own father making Tom angry and defensive bc TUVOK isn't angry#and this irritates Tuvok and reinforces his own beliefs about his own rebellion from his father...how stupid and childish he must have#looked...just like Tom. and Tom bristles bc there he is - and there's his father again - all in one person#Tuvok [perpetuating the cycle]: Literally nothing's wrong with the cycle. I went through the cycle and I turned out fine so it's fine.#Tom [wants so bad to be in the cycle]: Whatever. I don't even care about the cycle. I hate the cycle actually I'm glad I'm free of it.#I see Tom's father as someone who told his son (explicitly or not) incessantly and at all times that he wasn't enough save for brief period#when he was doing something largely notable and positive from his POV (ex: You got into Starfleet! You made lieutenant!)#Whereas Tuvok's father was someone who in my mind was very kind to Tuvok - was perhaps even a bit indulgent of him but didn't tolerate bein#disobeyed well and would become very cold - leaving no room for discussion#which could result in Tom having a very defeatist attitude about himself 'Why even try? I'm gonna fail anyway'#where Tuvok instead has reconciled these two seemingly disparate images of his father 'warm father' vs' cold father'#by just blaming himself in the instances where his father mistreated or hurt him - he only acted that way bc I did the wrong thing (so he's#right to have done it) - distinctly different from Tom's attitude#I like this bc it makes me think of how Tuvok might treat his own children since he's unwilling to acknowledge any fault with his father's#treatment of him but also didn't necessarily LIKE being treated that way. It also gives me a new avenue of Vulcan fatherhood to explore -#different from Sarek who was seemingly always cold and who Spock never fully reconciled with
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Re: Tuvok being Janeway's true biggest enabler, I really like how it's implied that Janeway absolutely returns the favor

Like, Tuvok has the nerve to basically tap Chakotay on the shoulder and go "Um? I hear you're going with B'Elanna's plan? That's not how it works. I, Tuvok, just made a suggestion and you're not following it which is really confusing to me. If JANEWAY were here-" and I do love him for it and I DON'T think he's lying. I think Janeway really does have a long history of listening to Tuvok over others, perhaps without even realizing it. Janeway & Tuvok together sound like hell in space, a literal nightmare, and I adore them for it. Janeway unintentionally strokes Tuvok's ego by letting him do whatever he thinks is best in any situation while Tuvok unintentionally feeds Janeway's self-image of what a glorious captain should be and I'm not saying Tuvok isn't smart or Janeway isn't a great captain [they objectively are these things] - I just really love this ouroboros they've got going on. They bring out the best in each other, they're so selfless, they'd sacrifice their life for the other, and also they're a little bit full of themselves in part because the other keeps feeding them, and I think that's beautiful✨

Tuvok Voice: Sorry. This is...really difficult for me...I'm just not used to not being favored by the captain. Chakotay: ................................................................

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Anonymous asked:

(anon from before) ok that is genuinely so hilarious to me but what I meant was what do you think of it as a meditation tool/nugget of Tuvok and Vulcan lore? It reminds me a lot of your fic about Vulcan bonds being like a house. (<- a horrible summary of your beautiful fic I do apologize but I hope you know what I mean) in that the final form/shape is ever changing depending on a persons mental state. The imagery of the (silly little) structure that Tuvok was building in that episode toppling over with him saying “I am in control” and because he was mentally unwell (with the telepathic std lmao) gives me like,,,, “the structure of your home/the metaphorical rug being pulled out from under you after u got transported 70,000 light years away from your bondmate and entire world and network of bonds” vibes.

Side note I think that it has great potential as a physical representation of a failing Vulcan marriage/betrothal in a hypothetical SNW T’pring/Spock episode. <- if I had my way in the SNW writers room, all hell would break loose lmao

Is there a real connection? Am I just fangirling over your fics? We shall never know (one of those is certainly the case)

Original Ask: Thoughts on the Keethera? (Tuvok’s block puzzle thing from s3 ep2) <- At the time I had no thoughts as I didn't understand what anon was asking. The Keethera is very interesting. I've said this before but it's interesting and indicative of his character that the two games/meditation exercises we see Tuvok partaking in are the Keethera and Kal-Toh, both of which do not have a hard and fast ideal or win-state and are meant to show the person or people building them something about themselves. It's very much unlike chess, which is Spock's game of choice. The Keethera is more a diagnostic tool and Kal-Toh speaks to the core of Vulcan emotional control - that is, the ability to find harmony where there is seemingly only random chaos. Tuvok's not doing well mentally. I don't think Tuvok's been doing well mentally since vanishing into the delta quadrant, much like everyone else, however unlike everyone else he doesn't seem to have any sort of....safety net? Anyone to confide in? Nor does he seem to WANT to or know how to confide in others - how to be open about his pain or need for help.

I like this interaction in which instead of having to say that he's struggling, Kes can simply look at the Keethera and see that he is. Tuvok's inability to effectively share his pain with others makes sense - they're all aliens to him and he isn't close with any of the Vulcans on the crew. He's also a person who prides himself on being solitary and strong and Vulcan. As seen in 'Alter Ego' he intentionally cultivates an air of being utterly separate from others even when ostensibly participating in a group activity and is shown several times in the series to think himself above others. [Ex: Neelix, Chakotay, B'Elanna, Humans in general] However, the image he has of himself makes reaching out for help incredibly difficult. He has cultivated an image in which he is utterly unlike the others, in which he is better, less prone to being hurt, and because he stakes his pride on this image he now cannot ask for help without it going against his image and damaging the reputation he enjoys holding. I think this is a relatable problem. Personally, when I was a teenager, I had cultivated an image of being a jokester and bubbly person which I struggled valiantly to maintain even when I was going through severe bouts of depression. The idea of myself as someone who was a jokester and happy all the time was very important to me and losing that felt like it would be 'giving in' to my depression and losing my identity when in reality my refusal to actually address my depression was causing my depression to worsen. In Tuvok's case, his identity pre-delta quad is perhaps the only thing he has left of his old life. It's stated and implied multiple times by the narrative that Tuvok is lonely and misses his family and that that loneliness is beginning to cause him to act in ways he normally wouldn't (Compare him to Marayna in 'Alter Ego'). The fact that he misses his family and is lonely is also relevant due to the fact that family ties are INCREDIBLY important in Vulcan culture. Tuvok's family is obviously very close but more relevant to this, family ties are stated across several episodes to be crucial in dealing with trauma or mental stress. Personal information seems to be [across multiple series] very private to Vulcans. Personal information is sensitive and intimate and not something you share with just anyone. To me it's natural to assume that this is also a contributing factor in Tuvok's resistance towards reaching out for help. He feels it's something private that he should only share with other Vulcans who are close to him or a healer - but no such person exists on Voyager and his closest friend is the captain, whom he doesn't want to 'burden' with his problems when he can handle them alone [or so he thinks] and so he endures and endures and endures in silence. The Keethera showcases Tuvok's mental state not only in its structure but in Tuvok's persistent mantra that he is fine despite the clear signs to the contrary. "I am in control," he says, as the Keethera falls apart. It is also telling that Tuvok has no separate course of action. After the Keethera crumbles and Kes leaves, Tuvok just starts building the Keethera again. It's a meditational aid and helps focus the mind but something strikes me as incomplete or wishful about him continually building it, alone, and only to watch it crumble. What else can he do but continually punch the numbers and watch as he's told over and over again that he's not okay?

Tuvok's conversation with Kes at the end of 'Warlord' is something I love. I think it's very good advice on dealing with trauma that he struggles to follow himself. We never see the completed Keethera at the end of 'Flashback' - there is no assurance that his mind is completely healed from the trauma he's endured. [Even if the memory was not strictly 'real', his reactions to it were and thus we can say he DID have a repressed traumatic memory] Instead we see him talking with Janeway, with a friend, and we perhaps know that even if it isn't - he's not alone.

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Saw another bad faith take about T'Pring being a murderous bitch, gotta write another fic that paints her in a warm and sympathetic light

I'm tired of seeing this argument. The 'Making them fight to the death was too far'. I'm asking you to have empathy for a woman.

Transcript, T'Pring: You have become much known among our people, Spock. Almost a legend. And as the years went by, I came to know that I did not want to be the consort of a legend. But by the laws of our people, I could only divorce you by the kal-if-fee. There was also Stonn, who wanted very much to be my consort, and I wanted him. If your Captain were victor, he would not want me, and so I would have Stonn. If you were victor you would free me because I had dared to challenge, and again I would have Stonn. But if you did not free me, it would be the same. For you would be gone, and I would have your name and your property, and Stonn would still be there. It is incredibly obvious to me that Vulcan society as portrayed by TOS heavily favors men in marriage. (I will not be taking other shows into account, IE: "It's shown in SNW that T'Pring can end the engagement at any time so she's evil and bloodthirsty for making them fight!" T'Pring's actions are in the context of TOS and everything else came after, thus having no bearing on what she does in TOS. It doesn't matter how Vulcan society is LATER characterized in THIS episode.) The Pon Farr in TOS only affects men and women are there to sate the pon farr. It's been made literally impossible for a woman to reject a man wholesale. T'Pring cannot say "I do not want him" - it is an illegal action to do so. The BEST she can do is say "I have another man." The kal-if-fee hinges on having two champions fight for a woman's hand. This implies that there must BE two champions, that T'Pring must have another man ready and willing to fight for her or she'll be Spock's wife regardless of her own desire.

Words like 'property' and 'freed' are used when describing T'Pring's potential marriage to Spock and it is plainly stated that T'Pring's ONLY lawful option for any kind of divorce is by the kal-if-fee. From T'Pring's wording it's obvious that she feels trapped by Spock, why shouldn't she? He's a man who's a stranger to her and we see throughout the episode/series that Spock is from an incredibly powerful family and is a legend in his own right. ("She's probably from a powerful family herself!") Yes, undoubtedly. She calls Stonn HER consort, implying she DOES have a good deal of power, royalty in her own right I suspect but crucially we don't really SEE that. We can assume, but T'Pau is there for Spock's family, those are his family's grounds, Spock is the one we know has an ambassador father, who has the status of a legend. It's implied, in many ways, that T'Pring is (while wealthy and powerful) NOT on the same level as Spock. They are not on equal footing. TOS Vulcan society is portrayed as one where women are legally property of their husbands. About becoming angry with Christine Chapel for making and offering him soup, Spock says that women should only be 'servants' to their own men [husbands] and to serve others is undignified.

This isn't just the case in this episode. In Journey to Babel there's this exchange between Amanda and Kirk.

Kirk: It sounded like [he commanded you]. Amanda: Of course. He's a Vulcan. I'm his wife. It's notable that Amanda does not say 'the ambassador' or 'Sarek' - implying that this behavior is due to him being an important figure or a facet of his personality. No, it's stated that because he is Vulcan he expects his wife to obey him. It's such an innocuous thing too, he just tells her 'continue the tour' but it's telling that this IS acknowledged by Amanda herself as a command which she intends to follow. It is explicitly NOT a suggestion and it's portrayed as natural. "Of course" this is how a marriage works. To Amanda, this isn't an issue. She has a bond of trust with Sarek and they obviously love each other very much, as demonstrated by the episode. I have no doubt that their relationship is friendly and caring. They fell in love with each other, chose each other, etc. I wouldn't even argue if someone said that Sarek probably wouldn't become upset with Amanda for 'disobeying' him. The point here isn't "Sarek and Amanda are in a bad relationship" it's that on Vulcan it's expected for a woman to serve her man absolutely. Whether or not that's how Sarek and Amanda's marriage actually functions (I doubt it), it's how it's EXPECTED to. Now imagine if you were expected to have a relationship with that sort of potential power imbalance with a total stranger. A rich and powerful stranger. Can you imagine? Especially when there's a man you know and trust and care for so close, willing to be with you, a man you actually WANT who you're certain won't treat you poorly. Can you imagine being asked to give that up, or even risk giving that up - to risk that man's death on the CHANCE that the stranger with total control over you might be merciful? On TOS Vulcan a wife is 'servant' a wife is 'property' a wife is to be 'commanded' - these are things which characters OTHER than T'Pring say, so it is not her subjective opinion on how Vulcan women are treated in this society. A wife is expected to serve, regardless of desire, because her husband commands it. Even things such as what she'll do in his absence are able [and expected] to be determined by him. I am not saying that T'Pring had NO other choice. She could have, perhaps, reached out to Spock. The kal-if-fee isn't explained in detail, while it's heavily implied she requires a male champion to become wedded to instead of Spock, could she have #girlbossed it and chosen herself as champion? Maybe she could have gone outside the law and refused him without issuing a challenge, etc. What I'm asking is, why is that what you're looking for? Why can you only empathize with T'Pring if she had LITERALLY no other option? T'Pring is her own character, living her own life separate from Spock. She doesn't know Spock, they haven't spoken to each other since they were engaged at seven years old and she comes from a culture wherein men essentially rule over their wives. Why can't you grant her charitable interiority? Why do you jump so quickly to vitriol and blame and assume her actions were malicious at worst and "too far" at best? Why are you so timid in your praise but so eager in your invective criticism?

For all those earlier 'what ifs' I could offer my own 'what ifs' on T'Pring's side. Why would she contact Spock? Both from a cultural perspective [wherein women are the property of men] and a 'purely logical' perspective: Why would a man release a woman if having a woman is the key to saving his life? How would Spock benefit from that and if he doesn't benefit, why would he agree to it? Again, she doesn't know Spock. He is just a powerful man to her, a legend who owns her as wife-property. She might just be tipping her hand, increasing the chances that Spock will prepare for the battle and kill Stonn, the man she loves. Contacting Spock seems naively hopeful at best and downright stupid at worst given the culture and the fact that T'Pring, one more time, doesn't know Spock at all. Could she have girlbossed it and chosen herself as champion? Setting aside the fact that this doesn’t seem to be a viable option, would she have won? She isn’t shown to be physically strong. She isn’t shown to be unconventional. The challenge she invokes is ancient and all of her plans are within the bounds of Vulcan law.

“She should have just said no!” Unfortunately, T’Pring is from a culture where her saying ‘no’ is heavily implied not to mean anything. Again, she isn't shown to be unconventional. She's likely from a wealthy, powerful family and her personality is a factor in the decisions she makes. To me, it's a bit silly to say 'she could have just been a different person!'

“T’Pring should have just told Spock, she should have just said no, she should have just-” My, how easy! It’s amazing that T’Pring didn’t think of just saying ‘no.’ It’s honestly baffling that T’Pring didn’t just think of calling Spock up and telling him she didn’t want to marry him, actually. Almost as if there were structures in place which stopped her from doing that. Almost as if there were reasons she couldn’t, but no…that can’t be the case. There are a million reasons in Spock’s favor, of course - ways in which Spock could have been treated better, given more consideration, spared from more pain, but absolutely zero reasons for T’Pring to have made the choices she did. Naturally. Throughout this post I've shown many arguments against T'Pring, 'what if' scenarios that might be true and might make her bloodthirsty and evil, willfully and murderously cruel at the worst and mind numbingly stupid at best, if they were true. My question is why? Why are you working so hard to vilify this woman? Because her actions MIGHT have led to the death of Spock or Kirk? Because Spock was sad for a little while? Because, theoretically, Spock might have been hurt by her rejection? Because Spock and Kirk are the main characters and she’s just some bitch? I am asking you to spare some of that empathy for her and it's very telling that even in 2024 I encounter so much resistance to this idea. "It's fine that T'Pring didn't want to marry Spock, honestly, girlpower, of course it’s fine, but did she have to be so mean about it? She had choices." [General you] say and I am pointing to the society. I am pointing to the words 'property' and 'freed' and 'servant'. I am pointing to the way you spend so much time thinking of ways T’Pring could have been in the wrong that you can’t (and won’t) spare a second to think of ways she could have been in the right. It’s telling, the way [general you] fight so hard to find a way to still place the blame at her feet and her feet alone. It’s telling, the way I never see “The situation was fucked up, the society was fucked up, etc.” It is always “T’Pring is a racist murdering bitch who hated Spock and wanted him to die” at the worst and “T’Pring was within her rights not to want to marry Spock but the way she went about rejecting him was all wrong” at the best. I am pointing and I am asking you: Is that the best you can do? Is that all we can hope for? "I love female characters!" Until they put the men in danger. Until they do something you don't agree with 100%. Until they make a choice you don't like and aren't completely absolved of any free will in making it. Until they aren't perfect. "We need more complex female characters" You can't even handle T'Pring. "I love female characters!" But never at the expense of men.

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what are your favorite differences in personality between Spock and Tuvok? :)

I love that Tuvok is a total prude (like catholic nun level prude despite having 4 kids as you have said v_v) and so in comparison Spock looks like a complete slut (/affectionate) flirting with Kirk every other second lmao

oh!! and I also love how Spock is all like emo and tortured by his identity and Tuvok is (mostly) chill and stable. I feel like if they met, Tuvok would be having flashbacks to his emo phase lol

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If they met (without Tuvok's obvious knowledge of who Spock is and you know what? Even with it) they would NOT vibe in a million years!!! God bless 'em ❤

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you're so mind is so sexy, may i inquire about your thoughts on amanda grayson

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Amanda Grayson is different from Sarek but just as detrimental to Spock's emotional health/self-confidence. Both she and Sarek very obviously love and care for each other deeply but for some reason cannot appreciate the traits they fell in love with in each other in their son. They both seem to, in different ways and to varying intensities, resent their son.

I'll be focusing on Amanda here, specifically the above section in 'Journey to Babel' where she entreats Spock to save his father's life. Amanda at the beginning of the episode seems to joke with Spock about how he still doesn't know how to smile. You can take her teasing of him in this instance and later at the banquet as motherly and good-natured but in the quoted scene this turns poisonous. It becomes clear that Amanda really does hold exasperated resentment towards Spock. Whether that's exacerbated by the situation or not, it's contained within her. However, it's also clear that Amanda did not foster 'Humanity' in Spock. Spock says that he followed Vulcan philosophy and deferred to his father. He is Vulcan and he desires to be Vulcan. However, it's not as if Amanda had no choice in the matter. They are BOTH Spock's parents and they raised him together. It's notable that Amanda does not say "I tried to comfort you" when she recounts Spock coming home from being bullied (it's implied this happened multiple times). She doesn't say "you pushed me away" or "I tried to comfort you" - she says she watched him. She watched him suffer, and she cried. She was an observer. This is reinforced to me by the timing of this confession. It's as if she's saying "You may think you're so Vulcan but I've seen your Human side, I've seen you suffering, I've seen you in pain. I know you're capable of feeling." It's a revelation - but why did she do nothing but watch, knowing her son was in anguish? It's also notable that in essence she is agreeing with his tormenters in this instance: Stop trying to be Vulcan. It's obvious to everyone, including your mother, that you are not. This is how I view Amanda's role in Spock's childhood. Mainly an observer. Spock loves her more than Sarek because he cannot remember her being as domineering as Sarek, as unforgiving as Sarek, but neither does she seem to have been particularly loving towards him. I think Amanda deferred to Sarek in raising Spock almost completely. She loves Sarek more than Spock and they both love each other more than they love their son. Sarek's life is more important than Spock's own and at the end of the day this was and will always be the case. It's notable that though Spock specifies he's only upset with Sarek, Amanda says that neither of them have heard from him in years - implying that though Amanda isn't upset with Spock, she doesn't see or speak to him. She and Sarek are a package, always. They will agree with one another, always, and it seems that Amanda has a tendency to defer to Sarek in most matters that won't jeopardize his life. It's interesting to me, how Amanda talks about humanity and how Spock states he was ashamed of being human. I wonder if Amanda could sense this shame and resented it. Despite loving a Vulcan, she positions humanity as better - warmer, kinder, a more loving a way to be when push comes to shove. An earlier conversation between her and Sarek also interests me. Sarek states that he isn't proud of Spock and doesn't consider him to be his son (in so many words) but that Spock, as an individual completely separate from familial ties, still deserves respect. He asks if Amanda understands this and she says no, but that she loves Sarek without needing to understand. He accepts this and they kiss, satisfied. This 'love without understanding' is intriguing. It's probably why Amanda can have lived on Vulcan, raised a child on Vulcan, and love a Vulcan without knowing what it is to BE Vulcan. At a fundamental level she doesn't care for it. She seems to view it still after so many years as alien. It contrasts completely her earlier statement where she professed to know and value the Vulcan way.

Her acceptance of Vulcan as "something I love [conditionally] but don't understand" is the same as her acceptance of Spock. Spock wishes to be understood and loved by his parents. I take his insistence that Sarek would understand and agree with his decision as something of a comfort to him [as Sarek does not love, understanding and agreeing is the closest equivalent and something which Spock was not afforded before]. Amanda loves Spock conditionally, in the same way his father does, and she will utterly reject him if he does not live up to these conditions (which are less obvious in day to day life than Sarek's conditions but still present) - will hate him vehemently in contrast to his father's total silence. Will slap him in contrast to Sarek's cold eye, but the result is the same. "I do not understand you. If you do this, I will hate you for the rest of my life." I like this episode's interpretation of Amanda far more than adaptations which turn her into a saint. I think it's much more interesting to consider this woman as Spock's mother. When I hear Amanda say she will hate Spock for the rest of her life if he lets his father die (even if this is an emotional exaggeration), I think about Spock, crying on the floor, wondering desperately whether or not his mother knows how much he loves her. When she says she doesn't understand Vulcans, doesn't like how they operate, finds it an immoral way to be when push comes to shove, totally at odds with her human heart, I think of the fact that Spock is Vulcan, strives to be Vulcan, and how very at odds he is with that same heart which he loves - which says it loves him. [Photo Source: Allison Bechdel - Are You My Mother?]

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once again chewing on my pen writing stuff and thinking about how bad i wish we got like more prologue of tuvok being a spy. i need it

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In the novel 'Catalyst of Sorrows' we see some of Tuvok doing undercover work! (Apparently he's also fake married to Selar). When I think of Tuvok doing spy or undercover work I think about lying. Vulcans can lie - it's not a physical impossibility or, I would imagine, particularly difficult. It requires discipline to be Vulcan! But about lying - what is a 'lie' to Tuvok? Does he accept that he'll have to lie as part of his chosen career or does he somehow rationalize to separate his work from his 'self'(katra)? When he lies while undercover is it, to him, HIM telling a lie or him playing a character who lies? Is playing a character not a lie, even if the person you're "acting" in front of is unaware of it? An interesting scene happens in 'Catalyst of Sorrows' around deception. A shopkeeper is suspicious of Zetha, a teenager(?) they're traveling with. She's acting strangely unknowledgeable about the area. Selar then says "My sister's child. She has not been offworld before." when Sisko questions her lie ('I thought Vulcans didn't lie?') Selar says she didn't lie - her sister has 3 children. The statement "My sister's child" and the statement "She has not been offworld before." are two unrelated statements, Selar says. She did not say "This is my sister's child" which would be a lie.

This is a classic exchange! And one I think about often. Tuvok asserts that he is "at all times honest" which I think would ring false to a lot of people given his job. But what I'm more interested in is why it rings true for HIM. It would be easy to just say "I'm honest when I can be" but he instead claims to be honest "at all times" which then is elaborated on as being "honest to [his] own convictions within the defined parameters of [his] mission." Honesty, truth, deception - it's all very interesting to me! When Tuvok says to Chakotay "I am interested in joining the Maquis" it isn't a lie and When Selar says "My sister's child" it isn't a lie but it isn't necessarily being 'truthful'. I think this sort of lie by omission or carefully worded self-deception is very interesting and one of the things about being a Vulcan spy who continues to uphold their own convictions of truth and honesty that would be fun to explore. I wish canon had explored it via an in depth undercover mission but I guess nooot. When Tuvok's undercover with the Maquis it doesn't appear he acts differently other than being loyal to the Maquis. I'm guessing that's because his cover story was something like being a Starfleet officer that defected - so he didn't have to change that much about himself. Tuvok says at one point that he's bad with improvising (it's implied he specifically means coming up with lies on the spot) which I /do/ make fun of him for. I /do/ have a laugh at that one because he's a spy BUT if I take that as a non-contradictory fact about him I do like it. It implies that he, Tuvok, is bad at improvising a lie on the fly which may not be true if he's playing a character. If he asks himself "What would Tuvok do" the answer would not be lie. If he asks himself "What would [cover name] do" perhaps again it's more of an acting exercise, a fiction which doesn't necessarily reflect on himself.

I think about Tuvok's approach to writing a fake scenario. He seems to value realism above all else - logic. Why might this happen? How likely would it be for this to happen? Why would a character say this, do that? He runs probability studies and he apparently takes detailed notes on at least Janeway's behavior as he straight up tells her in another episode. I wonder if Janeway's the only person he does this for and I wonder WHY he does it. It's not part of his job and it's implied he's been doing it since before Voyager even got stuck in the delta quadrant. Oh but god what was I getting at? I think it's endlessly fascinating to think about what a Vulcan like Tuvok, a Vulcan who is unwilling to become 'less Vulcan' or compromise his own morals/convictions, would do in undercover scenarios. It brings up so many questions: What is a lie? What does Tuvok consider lying? What is 'the truth' and how do we know it's being told? What does it mean to be honest in social interactions? At what point is heavy implication lying? What are Tuvok's convictions and how does he stand by them in his line of work? Why is he in the line of work he is - both security and as an undercover operative? What is it about these professions which draws him? Something that drew me in about one of the scenes in 'Catalyst of Sorrows' is that very last one. Jarquin hesitantly asks Tuvok, who's undercover as a Romulan merchant, if he would please ask about his missing sons. Tuvok hesitates then agrees to do it. What interested me about it is how he deems this as "illogical". I didn't understand what he meant by that at first but now I believe he meant that it would be somewhat out of character for Leval, the Romulan merchant, to agree but Tuvok's convictions would not allow him to turn the man down. It goes minorly against what the character Leval would do (illogical) BUT it would be perhaps a larger blight on Tuvok's katra to refuse such a small yet meaningful favor from someone who's helped him. There are plenty of things which aren't strictly 'logical' in the coldest possible sense of the word but which Vulcans do. Because they're people. There's also at many times implied to be another thing in tandem with logic - a sort of pacifism or kindness, an 'anti-cruelty' which stems from Vulcans past. It may not be "logical" (in again, the coldest possible sense) to sing your children a sixty verse lullaby when they can't sleep but if you CAN do it, why wouldn't you? If Tuvok CAN help this man (IE: It's not against his morals or the parameters of his mission) why wouldn't he? Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. It's as changeable and gray as emotion is. Vulcans cannot be led by emotion so they're led by logic - that doesn't mean they are black and white thinkers. They'd be a hivemind if they were! I think of 'Prime Factors' where Tuvok says "My logic was not in error but I was." I wish we'd been able to explore more about logic with Tuvok as well. In thinking of Tuvok I think of how the memory beta wiki says that the term 'logic' is just the typical translation of the Vulcan concept 'cthia' which might be more accurately translated as 'reality-truth'...

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Anonymous asked:

[Warning to others, this ask discusses very weird kinks but honestly if you follow this one you probably don't mind]

https://www.tumblr.com/bumblingbabooshka/730305412635721728

(same anon) Okay so. I have kept thinking about it and remembered something. Not trek related but whatever. A while ago in a discord I'm in we were hanging out in the double nsfw channel (that's what I sometimes call the channel some servers have for more intense or unusual kinks, from piss to vivisection - I'm only into one of those tho and by the end of this ask you might be able to guess which lmao) and I asked the (imo still v fascinating) question of "if you could have sex with an abstract concept, which one would it be?"

Eventually, my joke boyfriend (as in the relationship is joking, the guy is real) and I settled on double teaming socialism which now that I type it out feels very Chuck Tingle lol but before that, there were some highly interesting and tbh hotter but also less healthy choices. I really liked the suggestions of decay and obsession but also the one I remembered that the new kink you gave me reminds me of which is corruption.

Cuz like... that's exactly the scenario, isn't it? You come into contact with this entity, this... bad thing. Something unknown, something dangerous. And you try to remove or contain or fix it but as soon as you come into contact with it, it creeps over, it starts slowly overtaking you, overriding you, making you part of itself, almost owning you. And you try to resist of course, but it's too strong, it makes you fall into it, lose control, it doesn't care about you until you belong to it and then it'll never let you go, consuming you so completely you become unrecognisable. And idk, that's pretty hot to me lol

Anon with all fondness in my heart you're EXACTLY what I mean when I say we need more horny weirdos writing for star trek and I am NOT badmouthing or shaming when I say that and you'll know that bc I myself am a horny gay weirdo and I will demonstrate it RIGHT NOW. I have stayed silent on the eroticism of 'Meld' and the homoeroticism of Tuvok for too damn long. It's time. -Turns on projector-

Suder works as an introduction to 'violence' ['violence' here being the 'dark urge' which can stand in for many things]. Tuvok indulges in the violence, then becomes lost in it. There's a scene where Tuvok creates a holoprogram and kills Neelix. In a following scene Suder tells Tuvok that he too attempted to sate his 'urges' with holographic violence but it wasn't enough, it wasn't the same - a sentiment which Tuvok seems to share. It reads to me like someone who is already firmly immersed in a certain world leading another through it. Tuvok 'doesn't understand' what Suder means when he says that mind melding is violence/eroticism but once he explains his point of view, Tuvok doesn't deny it. He instead locks himself away. The 'violence' has become clearly too overwhelming, too attractive, and he will indulge in it again. Though Tuvok was the one who approached Suder and initiated the relationship, he now recognizes that it's too much. This could be read as...hm. Ok, a lesser example: You're a boy who really loves your male friend. Your male friend points out that your behavior could be considered gay and you stop interacting with them, shocked as you realize that it might be. What you might be. It's of course a very 90's...hmm HAYS-Y shall we say? Interpretation of sexuality, homosexuality - down the the fact that Suder must eventually be killed but that's the language of the show and it doesn't take away from the eroticism.

Though Tuvok tries to resist the 'dark urge' it returns as a 'need' he feels he has no choice but to obey - though he attempts to rationalize it. Suder pushes back against his rationalization, revealing it to be false. He also says that be indulging in the 'violence' Tuvok will no longer be 'normal'. Tuvok, giving up the pretense, grabs Suder and declares that he doesn't care - the desire overwhelms. Or so it seems of course, until he is able to resist and in doing so remain part of 'civilized society.' 'Meld' isn't the only episode which frames mind melding and violent thoughts as being akin to sex or some deviant sexuality ('Sexuality' here meaning something like 'kink' rather than an identity. There is no direct one-to-one parallel either: From piss to vivisection, just something considered 'abnormal'). The same sort of vibe is present in 'Random Thoughts'. [CW: Idk how to describe this. Metaphorical consent issues?] In 'Random Thoughts' there's an even darker feeling to the interaction. Multiple men in a dark alley, being restrained, Tuvok's line "If I show you, will you let me go?" - there's a clear language of danger and violation. There's also an element of secrecy: Hiding one's urges from others (Guill is known as an upstanding citizen, says he has children - Tuvok too is a husband, father, respected starfleet officer) and revelation. And once more there's the clear mm...language of sex?

"Show me yours and I'll show you mine" - type coded language. Also; the act of stripping, commanding, danger, abandoning safety and normalcy (Tuvok is no longer able to call for help from his ship/home), homoeroticism in that Guill and Tuvok must apparently be alone? Plus, and listen....LISTEN...I'm fucking insane ok but I'm also a lit major so c'mon, play in the space with me. Person: You're interested in me. I'd like to show you something desirable. Man: I'm intrigued. Person: I'm enticing you. You want to see it, don't you? Man: Why should I trust you? Person: I thought we had the same desire but maybe not. Man: No. I'm interested but first remove [item of clothing] Person: [Does so] Man: [To comrade] Leave us alone. ^ This a seduction, correct?? This is straight up a seduction. This is akin to every scene where the bad guy goes 'what's in it for me?' or some such and we see a shot of clothes pooling around the woman's ankles. Oh ho ho! Whistle! Leave us be! If Tuvok were a woman we'd be seeing a shot of his naked back. It's also followed again by what I'm calling the language of sex bc I don't know what else to call it.

Again the language the show uses for a mind meld is...the language around it is both romantic and sexual - either way, VERY intimate. "The deepest recesses of my mind" and "What's buried in my unconscious" ok. How deep do you want another man's will buried in your unconscious mind, Tuvok? Six inches enough for you? Christ. Again, I say this is homoerotic bc 1) It is & 2) Tuvok never to my recollection has this type of scene with a woman. He melds with women; Janeway, B'Elanna, Seven - but the intimacy of that is never stressed. There's no language of attraction. There's still danger there but it's a clinical danger - the 'danger' here is almost coded as something 'more' than that. It's not just that you will be physically damaged but that 'something' might happen and what exactly 'something' or 'more' is is somewhat nebulous because there is no factual, concrete one-to-one answer as to what the 'danger' is. This sort of thing is why I view Tuvok's mind melding as sexual in some cases, almost akin to -waves hand in the air- inadvisable sex with someone who doesn't care for you. In both 'Meld' and 'Random Thoughts' there's this sentiment of "I can share this secret dark urge with you" - A 'deviant' desire.

Me @ The Rest of my Followers after they read This: X

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