What is the greatest expression of love?

It’s very hard to do anything without any selfish intentions at all. So the greatest act of love is… to do something sacrificial they will never know you did for them.

“What is the greatest expression of love?”

“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.”

John 15:13

Okay, but like, according to the Bible he was fine after two and a half days and got to become co-ruler of the universe.

And he did it expecting people to do whatever he says afterwards as payment for him being inconvenienced for part of a long weekend due to rules he himself made and could change at any time.

That doesn’t sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

For comparison, Odin was hung on a windy tree for nine days and nights with a spear through his chest without food or water solely for the purpose of gaining important knowledge that would help humanity.

Upon being found worthy of receiving the knowledge he traveled the world sharing what he had learned with anyone who wanted to learn, no strings attached.

Odin hung from a tree for nine days and gave an eye, and gained something from it. God became a human being, a mortal who could feel pain and experience death; God was tortured. God was humiliated. God was abandoned. God was made helpless. And then God died. And he went through this process so that He could give something; His life. In becoming human, God divinized humanity. But that also means that this gift isn’t over; God died once and for all at Calvary, and He conquered death once and for all on Easter, but this cosmic battle continues to play out in the lives of each and every person, because they now share His life. “Whatever you have done to the least of these, you have done to Me” is not just a saying, but speaks to some form of reality. God experienced hunger so that He may experience hunger every time someone is starving on the street. God worked and labored so that He may work and labor alongside every overworked employee you encounter. God was abused, so He may be abused alongside those facing abuse now. Imprisoned to be imprisoned, hated to be hated, rejected to be rejected. And, somehow, in these shared experiences, where we thought we were alone, God’s choice to experience these things firsthand with us communicates His divinizing life into us. In taking up His cross, God became the Lamb upon which every human experience, good or bad, was placed upon. He is the Lamb slain at the foundation of the world, and in doing so has become the foundation of the world. I’ll take Christ’s sacrifice over Odin’s any day.

When Odin hung from the tree for nine days and nights he had a spear through his chest and was not given food or water for the nine days. And btw, the eye thing is an entirely separate event.

In the case of hanging from the tree, Odin gained something he fully intended to share with humanity -- which he did upon gaining the knowledge that made humans' lives better (it's similar in a lot of ways to the Bantu story of Anansi and the Story Chest).

Unlike your god, he was willing to share his knowledge without any requirements in return. If you wanted to learn how to wield the Runes he would teach you, no strings attached.

Your god didn't need to go through any process to forgive humans -- he was the one who made up the rules. He's creating a loophole for rules that he created in the first place and could change at any moment if he so chose.

Odin, on the other hand, is not a triomni god, and as such is limited in how he can help humans. Yet, despite his limited capabilities, he would still strive to help, sharing his wisdom, teaching slave and noble alike, and encouraging heroes on their adventures.

Me: Tolkien’s Middle Earth works are basically Norse Pagan fanfic.

Christians: No they’re not!

Me: He borrowed so much from Norse mythology that my Scandinavian mythology course would go over what he borrowed from what we talked about that day in class at the end of every class.

Christians: He didn’t borrow that much!

Me: He borrowed the name of the world his stories take place in (Middle Earth), name of all but one dwarf comes from a Norse poem listing dwarven lineages, Gandalf’s name comes from the same aforementioned poem, Gimli’s name is the name of one of the possible Norse afterlives, Gandalf is a copied and pasted version of Odin right down to how he looks and how he dresses, the rings of power (and the One Ring especially) were based on the ring Andvaranaut, Smaug is a copied and pasted version of Fafnir the dragon, Aragorn is based on Sigurd the Dragonslayer (as is Bard the Bowman), Aragorn’s sword and the prophecy surrounding it is based off of the sword Gram and its prophecy, the elves are based off the Alfheim elves, the dwarves are based off of the Svartalfheim elves, the ogres are based off of the incident in the Alvissmal, Shadowfax is basically Sleipnir, *continues the list on and on*

Christians: I’m glad you learned a lot in your class, but I fail to see why you think Tolkien’s work is anything other than Christian literature.

First part of Silmarillion: Eru, the First Being, never created, gave “thought” to the Ainur before anything and entrusted Creation to them. The most favored of them, Melkor, tried to take the Creation for him and went to war against the other Ainur and Eru, being then defeated by Tulkas, the greatest warrior of the Ainur. Eru then banished Melkor and he was given the name Morgoth.

Exchange names as God/Angels/Lusbel/Micheal/Lucifer and you got a perfect homage of The Genesis.

Tolkien loves mythology, no doubt there, but the Christianity in his writings is so marvelously present you sometimes don’t even notice it, unlike other fantasy writers (ahem, Lewis, ahem.). It is ridiculous to say that the professor’s books were more mythological than Christian.

@borgesperovago

I never said there aren’t Christian elements to his work. I can see it all over the place in his worldbuilding (though I agree he is indeed much more subtle than Lewis, lol). But the bulk of it is solidly and undeniably based on Ásatrú mythology.

Why do Christians have such a hard time dealing with that?

In fanfic speak, his work is a Christian!AU fic in the Ásatrú fandom.

And btw, just as a friendly fyi since we’re on the topic, anything borrowed from the Bible is also mythology. Mythology is simply a religion’s stories.

I find it diminishing to refer to Tolkien’s writing as “fanfic”, but I’ll go along; even if you wanna call it an AU, the very essence of it is judeochristian: the motives of Eru and the Ainur are not dominance and power like Northern gods were. Iluvatar is a merciful god who does not anger lightly; Odin was the god of sacrifices, known for striking down any foe giving it no second thought.

You are wrong to think the bulk of Tolkien’s literature lies in Asatru culture, since none of it’s values are present; heck, the dreamed life on LOTR is literally one without fights, growing plants, among family and friends, where the most trascendental thing to achieve was to have the most beautiful garden. Try compatibalize that with the mere concept of Valhalla (Heaven) for the warriors and Hel (Hell) for everyone else.

Ah, perhaps I should make this a bit clearer right away: I don’t call it fanfic as a way to disparage it. Much the opposite: I’m an avid proponent of fanart in all its forms, as I think it’s the very embodiment of an artistic movement started in Brazil I love which in English has become known as “remix culture”. The core of remix culture, first proposed in the essay O manifesto antropófago (The Cannibalist Manifesto) by Oswald de Andrade, is that you take the best parts of other art and infuse it into your work in a way that strengthens the quality of your work in a way that’s unique to you.

Next, I’d just like to thank you for answering calmly and politely. It’s not uncommon for my atheism blog to get replies calling me names and then blocking me. It’s refreshing to just have a friendly debate for once.

Now, as to what you’ve said about Ásatrú mythology and Norse culture… I’m afraid you’re wrong on both accounts. Let’s break this in two parts to make it less confusing (sorry if it’s a bit long, but there were several misconceptions to correct :P). 

Ásatrú Mythology

While some Ásatrú deities were undoubtedly war deities, their motivations were hardly ever related to seeking dominance and power in the way you’re implying, and when they did it was always depicted as a negative thing, such as in the case of Odin being temporarily influenced by Andvaranaut in The Otter’s Ransom (the inspiration for Gold Sickness, the One Ring, and why Gandalf couldn’t be the Ring Bearer).

Your description of Odin is definitely not how he is depicted in Ásatrú mythology at all. Odin is primarily known to be a teacher, a father figure, and an extremely clever and wise man who goes around giving sage advice. (And he’s the second best at drinking competitions after Thor).

He is the god of sacrifices in the sense that he was willing to sacrifice himself for humanity when he hung from a windy tree for nine days and nights with a spear through his chest in order gain access to the Runes to share with humanity. In Rúnatáls-þáttr-Óðins (Odin’s Rune Song) Odin seeks to gain knowledge of how to wield the powerful Runes not to make himself more powerful but rather to empower others. Once he is deemed worthy by the Runes he sets out to travel the world and share his knowledge with anyone who wishes to learn with no strings attached. He is also famous for having sacrificed an eye in exchange for being allowed to drink from Mimir’s Well to gain wisdom. He was a formidable warrior, yes, but he wasn’t ruthless, callous, or cruel.

Gandalf is basically a copy-and-paste version of Odin, temperament included,  with his name changed into that of an Ásatrú dwarf’s. Even his physical description and moniker of “The Grey Wanderer” are borrowed from Odin.

^ A depiction of Odin by Georg von Rosen from 1886

As for Valhalla and Hel, to quote my Scandinavian Mythology prof, “They are nothing whatsoever like the Christian concepts of Heaven and Hell. The only thing Hel and Hell have in common is the name.” She was very emphatic on this.

For a start, there are three possible afterlives in Ásatrú mythology, not two: Valhalla, Hel, and Gimlí. 

Valhalla is where specific warriors chosen by Odin and/or the Valkiries (attestations vary on who does the choosing) go when they die in battle. Not all warriors who die in battle go there and there is no stipulation that the warrior must be Ásatrú to go there. Warriors who are chosen to go there basically get to hang out at Odin’s crib getting crunk and taking part in friendly battles until Ragnarök, whereupon they will join in the final free-for-all battle that leads to the end of our universe as we know it. They all perish during Ragnarök.

Helheim, or Hel for short, is nothing whatsoever like Christian Hell. Rather, it is comparable to Hellenic (Greek) Hades. Like Hades, Hel is both the name of the place and of its ruler. Hel, like Hades, is not evil, and for the most part is a homebody who just hangs out at home with her subjects. Hel the place is neither uncomfortably hot nor a place of punishment. It’s simply where you go if you died of illness, old age, childbirth, non-battle-related injury, if you weren’t chosen for Valhalla or Gimlí, or if you died in infancy/childhood. It’s not a bad place to be. If anything it’s so peaceful to the point of being almost boring. During Ragnarök, its residents are led into battle by Hel and perish during the end of our universe.

Gimlí, the third afterlife, is a bit mysterious because not much has survived about it. We know only the best of the best warriors get chosen to go there, but there isn’t much more that we know about the parameters to be sent there. We also know some gods live or are sent there at some point, because the residents of the third afterlife are the only ones to survive the end of our universe and witness the beginning of the next, and we know at least two of Thor’s sons make it to see the next universe.

Norse Culture

A quick note just to explain my qualifications in talking about the topic: My Scandinavian Mythology course in uni wasn’t just about the mythology, it was about the culture which the mythology comes from as well. We even had a textbook just about Norse culture that we had to read. (Fun fact I learned from that textbook: A woman could divorce a man if he wore shirts with a cut wide enough where you could see his nipples).

Though most famous for their raiding, most Norse were not, in fact, warriors. They were farmers. There are just as many agricultural gods in the Ásatrú pantheon as there are war ones (if not more, in fact, as several war gods also doubled as fertility gods, like Thor).

Norse culture can absolutely be found imbued all over Tolkien’s Middle Earth.

I don’t want to make this reply an even bigger monster than it is already, so here are just a handful of examples:

Ever noticed how the most important characters, such as the leaders/heroes are all supposed to be tall by their species’ standards? E.g. Thorin is the tallest of the dwarves then Fili and Kili, Gandalf is like, seven feet tall or something, the elves (Tolkien’s favourite race) are the tallest race, etc? That’s from Norse mythology. In ancient art, the bigger the art subject the more important they were. It’s why ancient art often features stuff like giant people riding tiny horses and why the gods are usually drawn huge compared to humans.

The weird fixation on hair for both men and women? That’s from Norse culture. Hair was suuuper important to the Norse, which is why when Loki cuts Sif’s hair in her sleep as a joke he’s severely punished for it. Beards were such an important symbol of manhood that Thor (the manliest man to ever man) was said to be so manly he was born with a beard (no, really). 

Naming objects of importance like war weapons? That’s from Norse culture. Mjöllnir (Thor’s hammer), Gungnir (Odin’s spear), Andvaranaut (the ring the One Ring is based on), Gramr (the sword Aragorn’s reforged sword is based on), Höfuð (Heimdall’s sword), and Brísingamen (Freya’s magic necklace) all have names because the Norse named things that were important to them much like how we might name a car.

The dynamic of Frodo’s and Sam’s relationship? That’s from Norse culture.Though they did have rules regarding homosexuality, the Norse didn’t have as many hangups about homosexuality as Christians did/do. The dynamic of Sam and Frodo looks gay af because, well, that was one of the acceptable dynamics between two dudes in a romantic relationship. 

To put it simply, 

Or at least bi/pan. It’s hard to say, as having strict labels is a fairly new thing. I doubt Tolkien realized this, as queer history knowledge wasn’t really accessible back in his day (hell, it’s barely even accessible now) but by copying the relationship dynamics of heroes and their sidekicks from Norse epics he wrote two queer hobbits into his story. 

Whoops.

There being several ways of referring to the same person? That’s based on Norse kennings. Kennings were circumlocutions used in skaldic poetry to refer to characters. For example, if a Norse story or poem mentions “the whale road” it’s talking about the sea, a “sea-steed” is a ship, “sleep of the sword” is death, and the “heaven-candle” is the sun. Odin was the Hanged God and Lord of the Gallows and Loki was Sleipnir’s Dam and the Great Wolf’s Sire.

Here’s a resource with a ton of kennings if anyone’s interested in looking some up. :)

Referring to only a person’s male lineage unless the mother was famous for some reason? Norse culture. The reason Fili and Kili are known as the sons of Dis is because that’s how naming worked in Norse culture; their mom was a princess and a member of a very important family line so her name had precedence over her husband’s.

The dwarves’ writing system? They’re Elder Fuþark runes, the oldest version of Norse runes. ᚠ, the symbol scratched by Gandalf on Bilbo’s door is Fehu, which when on its own symbolized wealth.

Odin spotted on the subway

What is this? a crossover episode?

My advice to you, run

Solution:

Tell Zeus you’ll agree to meet him but only if he’s in the guise of a swan (a very sexy swan)

Tell Odin you will arrive in the form of a swan

Give them the same meeting location, pop some popcorn and hide in the bushes

Loki, is that you?

What is the greatest expression of love?

It’s very hard to do anything without any selfish intentions at all. So the greatest act of love is… to do something sacrificial they will never know you did for them.

“What is the greatest expression of love?”

“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.”

John 15:13

Okay, but like, according to the Bible he was fine after two and a half days and got to become co-ruler of the universe.

And he did it expecting people to do whatever he says afterwards as payment for him being inconvenienced for part of a long weekend due to rules he himself made and could change at any time.

That doesn't sound like much of a sacrifice to me.

For comparison, Odin was hung on a windy tree for nine days and nights with a spear through his chest without food or water solely for the purpose of gaining important knowledge that would help humanity.

Upon being found worthy of receiving the knowledge he traveled the world sharing what he had learned with anyone who wanted to learn, no strings attached.

My man, what the fuck does this even mean.

@woeworld

Christmas is like, 90% a syncretized pagan holiday made up of a mishmash of pagan traditions and celebrations.

And if memory serves, caroling originates from wassailing, which is also a pagan tradition.

.

P.S. I'm a woman, not a dude. :)

My friend sent me this today and I thought it was very important to share for all my fellow Viking/Norse mythology lovers. Daily reminder: fuck white supremacy.

This is so true, though. 

In regard to race:

Njörd, Freyja, and Freyr were Vanir. 

Skaði (Njörd’s wife), Járnsaxa (Magni’s mother), Hel, and Loki were Jötnar. 

Odin, Thor, Þrúðr, Móði, Magni, and Baldr were mixed-race (Æsir-Jötunn). 

Dark Elves were super good friends with the Æsir and made and cared for their weapons, so it’s not unreasonable to assume some might have settled in Asgard. 

The Dwarves would presumably be coming and going all the time (the only reason they couldn’t permanently settle there being the whole turns-into-stone-if-touched-by-sunlight thing).

In regard to disabilities:

Odin is one-eyed.

Týr was an amputee.

In regard to sexism:

Frigg could see the future and was highly respected for her abilities.

Freyja was so badass Loki and Thor once spent a good deal of time arguing about which of them was going to ask her for help because neither wanted to be the one she got mad at when she said no.

Hel ruled one of the lands of the dead and during Ragnarök commanded an army of all the dead souls in Helheim.

Idun was charged with one of the most important jobs in all of Asgard: Guarding the golden apples which granted the gods immortality.

Gefjun created the Danish island of Zealand.

The Valkyries were warriors and were charged with taking the souls of the chosen up to Valhalla, one of the underworlds (it’s possible they’d also take the chosen to Gimlí as well, though there’s very little known about the third underworld).

In regard to transphobia & gender roles:

Loki was either intersex or nonbinary. Loki once turned herself into a mare and gave birth to Odin’s eight-legged horse Sleipnir. Her kenning in reference to Sleipnir is “Sleipnir’s dam”, whereas when Loki was the father of a being he was referred to as their “sire” (e.g. The Great Wolf’s sire). He’s also known to both cross-dress as well as turn himself into a woman. And he used seiðr magic (which was considered “unmanly" and was used almost exclusively by women).

Odin also used seiðr magic and dressed as a woman.

Thor has been known to cross-dress convincingly enough to pass as a gorgeous babe (see The Lay of Thrym).

No risk, no loss, no sacrifice.

False.

Wolverine would be way more honest about the fact that he can’t die. 

Wolverine offering to take a bullet for you would be more like Odin hanging from Yggdrasil for nine days and nights to gain knowledge of the Runes to share with humanity (it’d be painful and arduous, sure, but there’s no claim to risk of death). 

A sacrifice would be more like when Anansi the Spider Man performed the three dangerous tasks to get Nyame’s Story Chest for humanity; although he did not die he genuinely risks his own life for the good of others on three to four occasions (depending on how the story is told). And even then it was more of a potential sacrifice since he doesn’t die.

1. Hell is NOT a concept in Norse religion.

That’s a Christian/Muslim thing.

Norse religion’s Hel was in NO WAY like Christian/Muslim Hell. Going there had nothing to do with morality or punishment. If it’s similar to anything, it’s to Greek Hades:

2. Odin never stole the Runes.

The Runes showed themselves to him of their own volition once he proved himself worthy.

3. Odin never died in the process of obtaining the Runes.

He was hung from a windy tree for nine days and nights with a spear through his chest, yes, but that didn’t kill him.

It was painful and unpleasant, but being hanged and speared through the chest is hardly gonna kill him. 

What kind of wimp do you take him for?

You’re thinking of Jesus, not Odin.

Deny Odin at your peril.

@religion-is-a-mental-illness I just noticed your comment and as someone who studied Scandinavian mythology in uni, I feel the need to point out that Odin isn't insecure like Yahweh; none of the texts we read in class (both Eddas and various other works) ever mention him demanding to be worshipped or threatening nonbelievers with torture.

In fact, after impailing himself with a spear and hanging from a tree for 9 days and nights to be worthy of the Runes revealing themselves, he notably travels around the world teaching about the Runes to anyone who's interested, no strings attached.

The god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, on the other hand, is an insecure weenie.