It really amuses me that I get complaints by Christians about my post of the exerpt to the lyrics to Shelley Segal’s “I Don’t Believe in Fairies” when the lyrics are simply someone listing off the things they don’t believe in.

Christians have tons of songs about what they believe in and they can’t handle even a single measly song saying “I don’t believe in these things (which includes things from Christianity)”?

It reminds me of that parable about the guy with a ton of sheep who’s super jealous of his neighbour who has just his one little pet sheep.

The lyrics, btw, are simply

“I don’t believe in Jesus, I don’t believe in Zeus, I I don’t believe in Allah, I think they have no use.

I don’t believe in Adam, I don’t believe in Eve, I don’t believe in talking snakes, I think it’s make-believe.”

As an Indigenous lifelong atheist being told by theist Jews on Tumblr that I have to be culturally Christian because I happen to be Latina, it feels extra gross and infuriating to me.

Especially as my tribe in particular (Nambikwara) has a long and very proud history of resistance against Christianity.

What theist Jews are saying when they say that all Latinos have to be culturally Christian regardless of their life story:

a) Indigenous culture and identity as well as other minority cultures in Latin America are invalid and/or unimportant compared to Christianity (if they even acknowledge their existence at all).

b) Latino culture is monolithic when it's anything but. If I were to say that Jewish culture is monolithic I'd be (rightfully) called a bigot, but in their minds saying that about Latino culture is a-okay. In fact, it's bigoted of me to disagree with them (complete randos on the internet) about what my culture is.

c) That Latinos don't get to have autonomy; we're required to have a hive mind because some randos who happen to be Jewish said so. And if we disagree with them then we're bigots because to disagree with a Jew regarding your own identity is bigoted, I guess.

d) They're imposing Christianity on Indigenous people, which is gross enough on its own without the added bonus that it also implies that Indigenous peoples' struggles to retain their culture are at best pointless and at worst irrelevant (if they even acknowledge the struggle at all).

e) They, complete randos on the internet, are more qualified than me to determine what my culture and beliefs are (not unlike how run-of-the-mill queerphobes claim to know better than the person themselves what their sexuality and gender are).

f) That Jewish Latinos are culturally Christian by default and don't count as real Jews.

g) That your culture is whatever the main religion in your country happens to be -- unless you're Jewish, Jewish people are the only ones who this doesn't apply to.

@lethargy-lifestyle

Well, I could at least understand the mindset behind saying someone who was raised Christian is culturally Christian, as your worldview has inevitably been impacted by the culture you grew up in. It does have some logic behind it. That being said, it kind of invalidates any work the person has put into unlearning the toxic parts of their childhood culture (which I'd imagine is extremely energy and time-consuming). So while I understand the mindset, I don't know if I would agree with it.

But this isn't even the case of what they've consistently done to me. They've said this stuff AFTER I've explicitly stated that I've never been a Christian and was raised secular.

And when I ask them if that means that Jews living in Christian-majority countries like the US and Canada are culturally Christian I get either ignored or called an antisemitic bigot.

Same goes for if I ask if Latino Jews are all automatically culturally Christian.

Religious Privilege Around the World

American money has contained the phrase “In God we trust” since the 1950s.

Atheist privilege is the worst of your problems being a sentence on paper money.

@protestantworkthatethic 

Where I live it’s legal to fire me on the basis of religion from a government job.

Where I live it’s legal to force a government employee to pray every morning and at staff meetings.

Where I live it’s legal to deny students who are atheist admission into a publicly funded school (or if the student’s parents are atheist).

Where I live it’s legal to use public funds to have religious programs in public schools.

I can’t travel to certain countries because being atheist there is punishable by death.

My country’s anthem is a prayer to the Christian god, so I and any other non-Christians are forced to worship a god we don’t believe in every time the anthem is sung. 

There are 7 states in the US where it’s illegal to run for office if you’re an atheist.

Atheist parents are less likely to get custody simply on the basis of being atheist.

Tell me again how my only problem is words on a piece of paper.

You've heard of mansplaining and gringosplaining, now get ready for...

...atheistsplaining, where theists (god-believers) "correct" atheists about what atheists believe and what their worldview is, and overall claim to know what the atheist believes better than the atheist does.

Oooh, someone didn't like getting called out for bad behaviour!

if you want me to stop calling out hypocrisy and racism I've experienced from your community then clean house yourself and hold people accountable when they say stuff like "All Latinos are Culturally Christian without exception because you can't escape Catholicism in Latin America!".

You either don't understand how tags work on Tumblr or you're trying to say that atheists shouldn't be allowed to speak. So which is it?

Tags on Tumblr are used to find posts relating to the topic of the tag. If my post references Judaism it's entirely reasonable to tag my post with the Judaism tag so my followers and I can find the post in the future.

You don't get to gatekeep what personal life experiences I'm allowed to talk about.

Several Jewish theists on this site have said that I, an Indigenous Latina, MUST be culturally Christian simply by virtue of my ethnicity because they said so (alongside hurling insults and suicide baiting when I said I wasn't).

Because apparently all Latinos are exactly the same and are part of a hive mind.

You've heard of mansplaining and gringosplaining, now get ready for...

...atheistsplaining, where theists (god-believers) "correct" atheists about what atheists believe and what their worldview is, and overall claim to know what the atheist believes better than the atheist does.

@wizardhunterwizard It's legal in my country to fire government employees on the basis of religion if they are found to be atheists.

My country's anthem is a prayer to the Christian god.

My country's money makes references to the Christian god.

My country has two public school systems, one secular and one Catholic. They are both funded by the public.

I'm required to pray at work every day if I'm employed at a Catholic public school.

I can't travel to certain countries because being an atheist there is punishable by death.

@wizardhunterwizard

This you?

I've seen the cultural Xtianity discourse for so long so often I'm sick of seeing it. Because it's the same thing over and over. Jews being like "hey recognize that some atheists are still culturally christian and this still harms us" and atheists being like "WHAT DO YOU MEAN HOW DARE YOU CALL ME BY MY OPPRESSORS I HATE ALL RELIGIONS AND JUST FOR YOU SAYING THAT I HATE JEWS NOW"

@hindahoney

1. Jews on Tumblr are NOT just politely saying "Hey, recognize that some atheists are still culturally Christian and this still harms us."

In every single experience I've ever had on this site, Jews have been neither calm nor polite on any posts regarding the use of the term "culturally Christian". In every interaction where Jews talked about cultural Christianity, they brought up the term to dismiss any criticism of the Torah or question about Judaism that they don't approve of by claiming that the person's opinions and questions are invalid because the person is "culturally Christian".

2. The problem people have with the Jewish use of the term "culturally Christian" isn't that we're denying that some atheists are culturally Christian and that Christianity has a long history of antisemitism.

The problem is that y'all are, as mentioned in the first point, using it as a condescending dismissal of anything any atheist has to say (or ask) about the religion of Judaism that you even remotely don't approve of.

And people get irritated and disrespectful toward people who are treating them condescendingly.

Frankly, based on your post's hyperbolic and intentionally uncharitable depiction of atheists and past interactions where people accused me of being antisemitic for things like

it's hard to take your claim seriously even though I know that, like with any large group of people, atheists that are antisemitic exist.

3. Even if there are Jews using the term in the way you claim they are (which, statistically speaking, it's not only possible but likely that some are), the problem isn't that they're saying that some atheists are culturally Christian.

It's that the fact that some atheists are culturally Christian doesn't actually impact Jewish people in a significant way at all.

For starters, we're a minority in most countries. And we're not in power. There are 7 states in the US where we're not even legally allowed to run for office. In Canada, it's legal to fire someone from a government position if they're found to be atheist. Several countries in the world have the death penalty for atheism. Egypt declared atheists to be terrorists.

"Atheists are our oppressors" and "atheists are prone to siding with our oppressors" has no tangible basis in reality.

4. Y'all repeatedly say that Indigenous people have to be "culturally Christian" because they live in a Christian-majority country.

I would think that I wouldn't have to explain why that's an utterly disgusting thing to say to Indigenous people, but apparently I do or I wouldn't have Jewish people telling me that I have to be culturally Christian because they said so.

Indigenous people have been facing genocide (both cultural and physical) by Christians for over 500 years.

In Canada, kids were kidnapped from their parents by the government and forced to assimilate to Christianity. They were given numbers as names and forbidden from speaking their language. Kids were publically flogged if they tried to escape. Indian Residential Schools didn't close down in Canada until 1997.

In Brazil, Indigenous people were hunted by Christians and Christians wore the severed ears of Indigenous people as a way of showing off how many people they killed. Right now, the government is trying to pass a bill to cut down Indigenous rights to their lands.

Saying that Indigenous people have to be culturally Christian because some rando Jewish people said so is disgusting and racist af.

It's also wildly ironic that you're imposing Christianity on Indigenous people -- which is a very Christian thing to do.

5. Y'all use double-standards when talking about yourself vs other people.

When I ask if Jews who live in Christian-majority countries are culturally Christian by virtue of where they live I get called a moron, antisemitic, and get told to go kill myself.

So the same standard of "you are culturally part of the majority religion of where you live" isn't held when it comes to Jews.

6. You don't have the right to impose a culture on someone any more than you have the right to impose a gender on someone.

It's not up to you to decide what someone believes.

Let's put this in terms y'all actually claim to care about

Has it ever occured to you people that refusing to call someone by how they identify themselves is the same kind invalidating as misgendering?

Basically it's saying "I know you, (usually a random stranger), better than you know yourself, I will not take you seriously, and I don't see you as who you are but as who I think you should be"

This is why telling a self-identified Atheist that they are actually Christian, or a "Christian Atheist" is extremely fucking messed up. They are not a Christian, they specifically do not identify as one anymore. They sufficiently know what Christianity is and isn't because they were once one.

When a LGBT person has homophobic beliefs I don't call them "actually straight" or "actually cis" or a "straight gay" or a "cis trans". I just label it as what it is, internalized homophobia/transphobia. I can acknowledge people have things to unlearn without invalidating their identity or calling them names.

Its wrong when terfs say "trans identified male" for a trans woman. Its wrong when you deadname someone when they specifically told you that is not what they want to be called. Heck it's fucked up to call someone by their maiden name because you disagree with their marriage. This is basic fucking decency and I don't understand why that is nowhere to be found for ex christian atheists.

THANK YOU!

That is a very good way of phrasing what I've said before but not nearly in such eloquent terms. I'll definitely be borrowing your very apt metaphors in the future if that's okay.

As an Indigenous lifelong atheist being told by theist Jews on Tumblr that I have to be culturally Christian because I happen to be Latina, it feels extra gross and infuriating to be told that I don't have the right to not believe in Christian ideals.

Because on top of all that you mentioned, saying that Indigenous people don't have the right to not believe in Christian ideals is exactly what Christians have been telling Indigenous people for centuries (which is pretty ironic, come to think of it, as it seems that the aforementioned Jews hold some awfully Christian beliefs and ideals regarding Indigenous people).

My tribe in particular (Nambikwara) has a very long and extremely proud history of vehemently (and violently) rejecting Christianity. Historically, Indigenous people in my country who refused to convert were killed and Christians would wear their severed ears as necklaces to show off how many Indigenous people they killed.

But apparently, I don't have the right to decide for myself what my beliefs are because all Latinos are required to believe the same thing; because randos online are more qualified to determine our beliefs. Latinos are too incompetent to know what they believe, which is clearly evidenced by the fact that I think I have the right to deviate from the monolithic hive mind we are evidently required to share.

I cannot believe people are saying the shit they say to me to an indigenous latina???

like at least with me I'm the prototypical cultural Christian who's early life was dominated by the bible and Christian parents. at least I'm white. I still don't deserve it but I can at least understand.

but for people who literally have no connection to Christianity at all except existing in a country that is majority christian it's really strange. because that's the experience of many Jewish Americans. so like if you're a cultural christian aren't they also? in that case why is CC a privelage id literally everyone is part of that group.

Or, only Jewish people can have a culture that isn't the default without assimilating I guess??

Yup.

I mean, I look white because I'm the Brazilian equivalent of what Canadians would call Métis (part Indigenous, part white) but they wouldn't know that, because I've never shared a picture of me on this blog.

Yet they always assume I'm white for some reason, and when I correct them they say that it doesn't matter because, to quote @famed-witch "you can't fucking escape Catholicism in Latin America".

It gets worse.

They also say that Candomblé and Umbanda (Afro-Brazilian religions which were syncretized solely so white people would let African slaves keep their religion) are "just another form of Christianity" because they're syncretized religions, completely dismissing the only reason why the religions are syncretic.

When I point out that the religions are only syncretic out of necessity for survival due to Christian oppression and that the religions are very much still persecuted they condescendingly say that that's irrelevant and that I'm a "fucking idiot" for claiming that two religions which are academically considered to be part of the Vodun family rather than Abrahamic family of religions should be viewed as African religions as the religion's creators intended them to be.

Let's put this in terms y'all actually claim to care about

Has it ever occured to you people that refusing to call someone by how they identify themselves is the same kind invalidating as misgendering?

Basically it's saying "I know you, (usually a random stranger), better than you know yourself, I will not take you seriously, and I don't see you as who you are but as who I think you should be"

This is why telling a self-identified Atheist that they are actually Christian, or a "Christian Atheist" is extremely fucking messed up. They are not a Christian, they specifically do not identify as one anymore. They sufficiently know what Christianity is and isn't because they were once one.

When a LGBT person has homophobic beliefs I don't call them "actually straight" or "actually cis" or a "straight gay" or a "cis trans". I just label it as what it is, internalized homophobia/transphobia. I can acknowledge people have things to unlearn without invalidating their identity or calling them names.

Its wrong when terfs say "trans identified male" for a trans woman. Its wrong when you deadname someone when they specifically told you that is not what they want to be called. Heck it's fucked up to call someone by their maiden name because you disagree with their marriage. This is basic fucking decency and I don't understand why that is nowhere to be found for ex christian atheists.

THANK YOU!

That is a very good way of phrasing what I've said before but not nearly in such eloquent terms. I'll definitely be borrowing your very apt metaphors in the future if that's okay.

As an Indigenous lifelong atheist being told by theist Jews on Tumblr that I have to be culturally Christian because I happen to be Latina, it feels extra gross and infuriating to be told that I don't have the right to not believe in Christian ideals.

Because on top of all that you mentioned, saying that Indigenous people don't have the right to not believe in Christian ideals is exactly what Christians have been telling Indigenous people for centuries (which is pretty ironic, come to think of it, as it seems that the aforementioned Jews hold some awfully Christian beliefs and ideals regarding Indigenous people).

My tribe in particular (Nambikwara) has a very long and extremely proud history of vehemently (and violently) rejecting Christianity. Historically, Indigenous people in my country who refused to convert were killed and Christians would wear their severed ears as necklaces to show off how many Indigenous people they killed.

But apparently, I don't have the right to decide for myself what my beliefs are because all Latinos are required to believe the same thing; because randos online are more qualified to determine our beliefs. Latinos are too incompetent to know what they believe, which is clearly evidenced by the fact that I think I have the right to deviate from the monolithic hive mind we are evidently required to share.

|image source|

And God’s supposedly the one speaking in that passage, by the way. 

God literally explicitly says “You may acquire male and female slaves.” in Leviticus too.  (Leviticus 25:40-46)

Okay, first off, you’re deliberately taking things out of context.

This is right after the Jews left Egypt. Where they were slaves. So this part is laying down the laws of how to keep slaves- including the fact that slavery is temporary. That’s literally the rest of the highlighted sentence. YOU CANNOT KEEP A SLAVE LONGER THAN SIX YEARS. This is usually a form of debt repayment- if you run afoul of huge debts, you would be a slave to your debtor, working for them without pay until your debts are repaid through that labour, or for 6 years if it’s not enough. And slaves had rights.

The end of the chapter mentions how someone could become a permanent slave by choice. I’ll admit that that one’s new to me, I don’t think I’ve read this part before. I’d suggest bringing that one before Jumblr.

But slavery isn’t always the same as colonialist slavery, it often wasn’t an enslaved people with no rights. Each culture had its own laws on slavery, might even have had multiple different kinds.

I hate these sorts of Culturally Christian Atheist “gotcha” arguments that require explicitly Christian approaches to playing games with the texts.

@the-library-alcove

1. ♪ I’m NOT culturally Christiaaaan! ♪

I’m culturally secular, thank you.

Like many (if not most) secular atheists, I was raised being taught about as many religions as my mom could get a hand on info about.

I have family members who are Wicca and family members who worship Candomblé.

I’ve had my Orixá de Cabeça divined by a Quimbanda priestess, been to a Buddhist temple on several occasions, taken university classes on Greco-Romano and Norse mythology & culture, celebrated a Pagan Summer Solstice celebration, and attended a South American equivalent of a Powwow to honour my Indigenous ancestors.

I’ve also been avidly studying comparative religion since I was 5 out of personal interest.

Just because I’m discussing Christianity does not make me culturally Christian.

And if you mean I’m “culturally Christian” because I live in a Christian-majority country, then Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, Sikhs, and Muslims in my country are all culturally Christian too by your logic.

2. I was talking about Christianity because the comment I was referencing was by a Christian.

Don’t worry, I know that God in the Jewish Torah and Muslim Qu’ran is pro-slavery too.

“except with their spouses and slave-girls. The practice of carnal relations is lawful with them.” (Surah 23:6)

“except from their wives and slave girls, in which case they are not to be blamed,” (Surah 70:30)

“Prophet, We have made lawful for you your wives whom you have given their dowry, slave girls whom God has given to you as gifts, the daughters of your uncles and aunts, both paternal and maternal, who have migrated with you.” (Surah 33:50)

3. It’s not a “gotcha argument” to do exactly what the person said I should do.

The person said “Read Exodus”. 

I did. 

And it literally has a section on how Jews can enslave other Jews. 

The Leviticus quote I gave, in turn, explicitly says “You can enslave the heathen that surround you and keep them as your property to pass on to your children.”

4. How is it a “word game” to quote an explicitly clear text verbatim?

The text explicitly says “You can own these people as property.” 

If you’re telling me that that’s not what the text means when it literally says that then I’m not the one playing word games, my friend.

5. I’m not the only one who says the text in the Bible is pro-slavery.

How Christian Slaveholders Used the Bible to Justify Slavery from TIME Magazine

Christianity: Atlantic slave trade and abolition from the BBC Religion & Ethics page

Slavery (Biblical Studies) -  Oxford Bibliographies

What The Bible Really Says About Slavery by Greg Carey, Professor of New Testament, Lancaster Theological Seminary

You’re using Christian-style analysis of the Torah and were raised in culturally Christian environments, like most secular atheists.  There’s no escaping it in a Christian-dominated environment unless you have an entire community to help provide an alternative upbringing to help shield you from it–which, by your own admission, you didn’t.

So you’re culturally Christian, and playing “Gotcha” style games.  And blocked.  

luv 2 see atheists writing their own shaggy dog jokes about themselves

I know, right? It’s like… “I will interact with this text in a Culturally Christian manner, by taking the text completely at face value, using quotemining and cherry-picking, and ignoring all of the cultural meta-textual analysis because to actually engage with that meta-text would contradict my intended end goal of ‘proving’ the barbarism of these persecuted groups in order to establish myself as morally superior.” Hard to get more Culturally Christian than that.

“I’m not culturally Christian!” says person engaging with a Jewish text in an incredibly Christian-influenced way (starting with “well this is the literal words on the page what other context could there possibly be??”) and citing exclusively Christian references in terms of extra-textual* commentary…

(Sorry, I know that’s basically what you just said, I just…)

*not sure if that’s quite the right term?

@wastelandmae

Omfg, people learn to bloody read.

Y’all get upset if we say the Old Testament and the Torah are virtually the same.

Y’all get upset if we treat the Old Testament and the Torah as separate texts.

You can’t have it both ways.

Sounds like what you really want is for atheists to not be allowed to talk.

anyways christians simultaneously stole the torah from jews and claimed that their new books made it irrelevant. you have been raised in a christian society, and you are defaulting to christian interpretations and seeing books from a christian perspective. you are culturally christian. quit pretending that your atheism gives you a permanent moral high ground.

in short, lign in drerd un bakn beygl, shmendrik.

@ravabiye

It's ALSO part of the Christian Old Testament, you condescending fuck!

Christianity started out as a denomination of Judaism, which is why the first half of their book is nearly identical to yours. They didn't steal shit, because the first Christians were Jews who still considered themselves Jews.

To the point that we have records that new Christians had heated arguments about if a gentile had to first convert to Judaism before becoming a Christian.

Scholars also agree that Jesus' intention wasn't to start a new religion but rather to reform Judaism.

It's literally such a basic concept of theology that I learned this in a 101 course on religion at uni. On day 1.

So are you a hypocrite or just painfully stupid?

And those same Catholics turn around and dare call cannibalistic cultures savage and primitive.

Like, bruh, by your own reckoning you do it too.

Their reasons for eating people are even basically the same as yours: to consume a piece of someone powerful/loved to have them become part of the consumer's spirit*.

They're just putting their money where their mouth is and actually eating flesh instead of a wafer.

* They even ate the first priest to say mass in Brazil (whose surname translates as "Sardine," making Brazilian kids cackle during history class) specifically because he was an enemy who said he had a direct line of access to your deity and they wanted that power too.

(the rule is that you can only consume from a powerful enemy you respect which you defeated or a loved one who has died, in both cases so their spirit becomes part of yours; in the case of the enemy to make you stronger, and in the case of a loved one so their spirit will live on in you)

Me: I’m an atheist who was raised secular but I observe some Christmas traditions.

Rando theist Jewish folk on Tumblr: Uh, if you celebrate Christmas in any way, you’re culturally Christian, sweaty.

Me: So my Buddhist friend who celebrates Christmas is culturally Christian?

Rando theist Jewish folk on Tumblr: No, he’s culturally Buddhist, of course.

Me: So the 1 in 3 Jews in the U.S. that put up a Christmas tree in their home during the holiday season are culturally Christian?

Rando theist Jewish folk: No, they’re culturally Jewish, duh.

Reminder that

a) It's disgusting to impose Christianity on Indigenous people such as myself. It's especially egregious when my people in particular have a proud history of vehemently rejecting Christianity.

b) You do not have the right to assign someone a culture. If you are an atheist who was raised secular like myself, the dominant religion's culture doesn't get assigned to you on default. We have our own distinct culture and way of raising our kids, we don't need to borrow anyone's.

saw yet another one of those “stop calling us culturally christian atheists, my abuse does not make me privileged. this is just religious people feeling threatened by atheism” posts again

your abuse does not make you privileged ofc but your membership in a dominant cultural group does. the fact that you’re unable to understand that there is a dominant cultural group and you are in it does make that less true. in fact it makes it more true.

and the “religious people feeling threatened by atheism” is literally just projection of christianity onto everything. like yes, it’s normal to assume that everything is like the thing you are familiar with, but really it is not always. jews talking about the way christian culture marginalizes us and how frustrating it is when people try to deny that they’re part of a dominant cultural group is not being threatened by your atheism bc we’re religious. how could it be when like half the jews talking about this are atheist or agnostic ourselves. your inability to distinguish a minority cultural group calling you out from christianity is part of what indicates that yeah actually. you see christianity as a default which is the problem in the first place.

@starlightomatic

Yes, there are people who were raised Christian who still need to go through the process of unpacking decades of indoctrination. Absolutely.

But what about those of us who explicitly state we were raised secular from birth and have never been Christian yet y'all insist on calling us "culturally Christian"?

According to y'all, the mere fact that I'm from a majority Christian country makes me culturally Christian but the same doesn't apply to Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh people who were born and raised in my country.

According to y'all, the fact that I get Christmas presents makes me culturally Christian but the same doesn't apply to my Buddhist friend who also gets Christmas presents, or the 1 in 3 Jews in the U.S. that put up a Christmas tree in their home during the holiday season.

That by virtue of being Latina I necessarily have to be culturally Christian since, and I quote, "You can't fucking escape Catholicism in Latin America," but the same doesn't apply to Jewish or Muslim Latinos.

That y'all get to decide my culture for me and impose Christianity on me despite me being an Indigenous person from a tribe with a proud history of resisting attempts to convert us.

As if secular atheists can't have their own culture and parenting strategies and must have a religion imposed on them, which is a belief that causes atheist parents to disproportionately lose custody of their children for no other reason than the fact they don't believe in a deity.