Calling for ASOIAF experts!

So here’s the story: someone asked me about Rhaegar leaving Elia and their two children in King’s Landing versus Rhaegar leaving them on Dragonstone before he left King’s Landing and died at the Trident, and I wasn’t able to find a quote in any book confirming one or the other.

Here’s what I have:

Here, we know Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone, and Rhaegar came back to King’s Landing later to present Elia and their daughter Rhaenys to his parents.

This is after the Tourney where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna his queen of love and beauty, where apparently Elia and their children are back at Dragonstone.

Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon are now back in King’s Landing. The question being: when did that happen? Between the two last passages, there’s only another one which doesn’t mention Elia or the children, only Rhaegar taking all the Kingsguard with him to the Trident except for Jaime:

Which is also confirmed by Jaime when he thinks about the last time he saw Rhaegar:

There’s no mention of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, nor is there any reason to believe Rhaegar would have left them in King’s Landing knowing Aerys’ state of mind. And since Aerys did prevent Elia from leaving for Dragonstone and kept her and her children hostages in King’s Landing, it makes sense to come to the conclusion that between Rhaegar leaving for the Trident and news of his death reaching King’s Landing, Aerys ordered Elia and her children back to the capital.

But where is it said?

That was me who asked !! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I’ve been searching like a madwoman through the books to find any mention of it whatsoever, and I just found out that, apart from the books, there is also a “semi canon source” which is the World of ice and fire, and I said I’m done, I will ask the experts.

What I’m looking for, essentially, is the specific proof that Rhaegar left his wife and kids in King’s Landing.

We know 3 things:

1) Rhaegar left Elia and the kids in Dragonstone to go with Lyanna

2) Rhaegar, sometime between that incident and his death, went back to KL where he talked to his father and Jaime. Here is the part that I found (storm of swords) where Rhaegar went back to KL to convince Aerys to summon Tywin because Tywin was considered until then an ally (and he was, actually, until the last moment)

When he came back to KL, that was the last time Jaime spoke to him as well, as Jaime says in the part @theblackqveen mentions above. My guess is that Rhaegar probably did the two things at the same time, he didn’t go to KL multiple times. He also took Selmy and Darry with him but I just can’t find the quote from the book.

3) We know that eventually Elia went to KL, probably by an order from Aerys, and stayed there till she died. We don’t know if Elia was in KL before and while Rhaegar came back to KL. Maybe she came after that.

My point is, probably fans say “he left her in KL” in the figurative sense. They don’t literally mean that. They mean that while Elia was in KL Rhaegar didn’t do anything to remove her from there. Why should he, is the question? Ok his father was a mad man and he got “suspicious” of Rhaegar when he initially left for Dragonstone to live with his new wife, but still, KL was the capital and the capital was the safest place for the children of the crown prince in the midst of war. Elia and her kids weren’t executed by Aerys. They were executed by Tywin, and Tywin was a traitor, he was presumed to be an ally until the very end of the war.

Maybe the most important question is exactly what happened with the members of the King’s Guard, meaning, why there was only Jaime in KL to guard Elia. For most of Rhaegar’s absence there were Kingsguard to guard Elia but during the sacking there was just Jaime. I think initially there were 5 in KL and two with Lyanna, Dayne and and Whent, and then Aerys sent Hightower to get Rhaegar back and he ended up guarding Lyanna with the other two. Also at some point Rhaegar came back and took Selmy and Darry with him while Aerys also sent Martell to Dorne and Martell eventually joined the other two at the battle of the Trident? So in the end, 3 Kingsguard were with Lyanna, one of which was initially sent away by Aerys himself. 3 Kingsguard were with Rhaegar, two of which Rhaegar took and one of which was sent away by Aerys (Martell). So Elia ended with one Kingsguard, Jaime. That went well.

Not that it will make any difference in my perception of the character of Rhaegar, the answer to these questions is not that important. I just want to be precise.

@ladyalianora are these facts correct? Is anything missing? If you could help us here I would be so grateful.

The Rebellion’s timeline is really hard to get, it’s all kinda messy. 😅

This is before the Battle at the Trident, as Lewyn Martell dies there alongside Rhaegar. And the Battle at the Trident is the only one Rhaegar definitely engages in the Rebellion. At this point, before Rhaegar’s death in battle, Aerys II already held Elia and their children hostages. I speculate that was not just to keep Dorne loyal; it was to keep Rhaegar “in line” as well.

Aerys II didn’t allow Elia to run away with Rhaella and Viserys. He was also the one who welcomed Tywin into King’s Landing, thus leading to the sack.

At that point, King’s Landing was really the safest place in the whole kingdom. Tywin only had the chance to sack the city because he was allowed in. I think that would explain why Jaime would be the only Kingsguard around. The Lannisters were apparently still allies and the city was as safe as it could be.

I agree with this. The ONLY reason for Rhaegar to even suspect that Elia wasn’t safe in KL was because in the beginning of their marriage, the King was kind of suspicious when they went to Dragonstone. No shit he was suspicious, he was suspicious of his shadow. KL was still the capital, held by the Targaryens.

So, you have a Mad King in the capital that is also Rhaegar’s father and you can safely bet he won’t slaughter his own grandchildren, which is correct, because he didn’t.

You have Robert starting a whole rebellion all around the capital, and Robert didn’t give a fuck about Elia or her children in fact, he had a fight with Ned over this. Robert would have slained the children himself, fight me on that.

You have an isolated Tower of Joy where Ned came with his men and easily defeated the three members of the Kingsguard. And if Elia was there too and instead of Ned, Robert came, to ACTUALLY kidnap and rape Lyanna (which could totally happen given his canon characterization) AND slain Rhaegar’s kids, all of them? Why would the Tower of Joy be safer than KL?

No shit Sherlock, the Tower had some of the Kinsguard while Elia in KL had just Jaime. In case you didn’t notice, the Kinsguard in the Tower didn’t do shit because they all died. So what is your point here?

This whole tragedy happened because of the Lannister’s treason at the very last moment. Jaime feels guilty of not protecting Elia and the children and the Dornish don’t even blame Rhaegar for what happened. The Dornish literally wanted a Targaryen restauration to avenge the actual culprits. Period, end of story.

I’m kind of rusty about this timeline but I don’t think Elia was in King’s Landing when Rhaegar left. I think he probably left and after that Aerys sent for Elia and the kids since it would have been easy to get her to come because Rhaegar would have probably said no. I think he sent for Elia and the kids a little later.

@ladyalianora @theblackqveen @alethiaii I HAVE THE TIMELINE. @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly cleared this out in the comments and they’re right.

Elia was already there, in KL, when Rhaegar came back. It’s right there in the text I posted but nobody payed any attention including me 😂

Just before the underlined text, Aerys tells Martell that he has Elia. Then Rhaegar returned from the south.

And Jaime’s dream in my opinion is not just a dream. It is probably a reflection of a real conversation that happened and still haunts Jaime to this day. Of course that’s speculation but objectively it makes more sense if a conversation like this one actually happened:

SO. Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna and left Elia at Dragonstone. At some point between that and the battle of the the Bells Elia came in KL probably because Aerys ordered it. Then Aerys blackmailed Martell with Elia. Then Rhaegar came in KL, convinced his father to call for their ally, Tywin Lannister and told Jaime Lannister that he entrusts his family with him. Then the Trident happened, he died, Lyanna died, then the sacking of KL happened, Elia and the children die. That’s the timeline.

That tells us one specific thing, how much Rhaegar trusted the Lannisters, the family as a whole, until the end. Yeah probably obviously that was a dumb thing to do, but it was not particularly dumber than Ned trusting Littlefinger in KL. If we say that Ned was dumb (and he was) it feels, somehow, not really fair, you know? The treason is so monstrous that blaming the trusting person for being dumb almost seems like a disservice to the character. It might be controversial to make that comparison, sorry about that, but I see strong parallels between Rhaegar and Ned in this particular situation and I bet that GRRM thought about it too I’m not saying that Rhaegar is like Ned I’m saying that they had a similar attitude in this particular situation that had a similar outcome.

Yes…probably…But we don’t know that for sure. And I as I already mentioned in my reblog yesterday whilst discussing the safety of Tower of Joy, if Rhaegar had any functioning brain cells, he would have ensured that there is security on Dragonstone loyal to him and to kindly tell whoever Aerys sent to fuck off. They’re at war, most of the men are out on the front lines. It’s not like Aerys could risk sending more than like 1.5 man out of KL that could come under siege at any moment to fetch a woman and two small children from an impregnable fortress that is stationed on an island surrounded by usually quite stormy sea.

It’s just a mess from start to finish.

Yeah but there would have been no siege if the Lannisters didn’t order the sacking though. And that was objectively something that, in universe, no one expected them to do. Not only Rhaegar, no one. Disregarding that diminishes the magnitude of the treason imo. We now know the sheer level of monstrosity the Lannisters are capable of, after having read the books. That’s not the in universe POV though.

Also why would Jaime be haunted for years after this event by Rhaegar’s ghost if this conversation didn’t happen? It doesn’t make sense for this dream to come out of nowhere. Yes Rhaegar acted like an monumental idiot in many occasions but that doesn’t mean that he has to act like an idiot in all occasions. It doesn’t make sense for him to just hop into KL in a tralalalalala mood and then vanish like a fairy without even thinking that his actual kids are there. This is not a character just being idiot, self absorbed and naive. This is a caricaturish take on the character. Yes it’s funny to say that Rhaegar had no braincells left lmao and I do say the same thing as a joke but we cannot replace his entire characterisation and explain the gaps in his storyline with the fact that he had no braincells left. Meaning, when trying to fill in the gaps, it’s not fair for the character to assume that between multiple options, he would pick the stupidest one and worst possible one because he’s stupid af. No, maybe he didn’t. I choose to speculate that he probably talked to Jaime and made him swear, because I believe it is in lign with his general characterization.

Not that him talking to Jaime about his kids changes anything really, lol. It doesn’t change the outcome, it just amplifies the tragic aspect of this story.

Also about the Tower of Joy. Your point on the anonymity is very valid, in the character’s POV the tower was really safe for that reason. We now know it wasn’t, but he believed it was, he couldn’t know what could happen. But I don’t think he believed the tower was safer than the capital, necessarily. He definitely believed the capital was safe, because he trusted the Lannisters because the Lannisters up until the end were sworn servants of the crown. In his brain everything worked, and he couldn’t be more wrong.

Your point on Aerys not being able to send more people to fetch Elia is also valid. That’s the only real issue with the facts, we don’t know exactly how she came in KL and it’s important to find out how, to fill in all the gaps.

Siege of KL would have happened with or without the Lannisters, the moment rebels won at Trident. At that point, Rhaegar is dead and rebels were bound to come knocking. Doesn’t matter what Rhaegar told Aerys before going to Trident, and despite the fact that Jaime was effectively a hostage as much as Elia, Tywin was not moving. He wanted a clear winner in sight before doing anything and then quickly swooped in to bag himself all the goodies he could under the pretense ‘see, I helped your rebel cause’ when it was also sheer pettiness on his side.

When I say ‘Rhaegar had one brain cell on the fritz’ it’s my joke and doesn’t infer that I think the man was dumb as a brick, in fact canon informs me that he was an intelligent man who excelled at anything he put his mind to but also that he was single-minded and preferred his harp to his sword.

Fair enough but that doesn’t tell me how that would have made for a good king. Would he have been better than Aerys? Sure, that one is no brainer. IF Tourney at Harrenhal was him scouting out the situation, then that’s evidence of him being intelligent and at the same time doing things without thought, purely based on emotions without considering how it looks in front of others.

You cannot plan to depose your father but publicly inform the lords whose support you need for this that your marriage is not good by humiliating your wife and mother of your heir by crowning another woman as Queen of Love and Beauty, your wife being a Dornish princess in her own right at that. It’s as if he forgot he was the crown prince and created himself a reputation opposite to what he probably aimed for.

As for Elia being in KL, we’ll never know because GRRM will not explain himself on this, I believe people have already asked him that during cons and on his blog but he always evaded replying.

Fair enough about the siege, you’re right. It would have happened anyway. A Sack would probably take place too. But this specific horrific Sack was all Lannisters’ doing, and it was still treason of the highest order. It was the Lannisters’ banners that marched through the capital, Tywin even pretended to come to the Targaryens aid in order to defend the city from the rebels, and then, when the gates opened to him, he proceeded to order the Sack. The gates opened because he was presumed an ally. Not by Rhaegar, he wasn’t there. He was presumed an ally by the guards at the gates of KL. They, like Rhaegar, had no reason to believe he was a liar.

My point is, explaining everything that happened by saying that Rhaegar was stupid for trusting the Lannisters is not the best thing to do. Yes we now know, after the facts, that Tywin Lannister was waiting to see who the winner is before bursting in and bagging himself all the goodies, but people didn’t know it then. Yes Tywin was neutral, but still he was presumed an ally by everyone involved.

I just dislike the argument that Rhaegar abandoned his wife as a hostage in KL and took all Kingsguard to Lyanna and that’s why Elia died. That’s not what happened. Rhaegar left Elia at the capital of the kingdom and entrusted Jaime with her life. He believed she would be safe there. He also believed Lyanna would be safe in the Tower. He tried whatever he could try to win the war, which ultimately was the only thing that would protect Elia, but he failed, and he died.

His responsibility does not lie in these actions : abandoning Elia supposedly unprotected, taking the Kingsguard with him, trusting when he should trust etc. Rhaegar was justified in doing those things. His responsibility lies in the fact that started a war : him taking Lyanna. That was his mistake, that’s why he’s being judged and why he paid the consequences along with Elia and his family and Daenerys and the Starks that were executed and so many other people. So I agree that we have zero proof he would be a good king. He could be, because he wasn’t violent, vile, cruel, unfair, inherently selfish or arrogant. He was generally described as a kind and considerate person. But in canon he was also tragically, fatally careless, and kind of flamboyant? So maybe he would be like Viserys as a King, which is not a good thing.

Honestly I’m kind of obsessed with Rhaegar, I consider him suck a complex and wholesome character despite the plot holes and the blanks and I felt very sad every single time I read a part in the book that was about him or Lyanna.

Something that I’ve been thinking about since having a “discussion” with someone regarding Sansa and her situation (in the books) is that she gets *no forgiveness* from a lot of the fandom for behaving like a very typical 13 year old girl.

Let me explain:

1. Her opinions and blind love for Joffrey, her trust in Cersei, and her dream to become queen and have royal babies: Sansa was raised with stories of damsels in distress, honorable and chivalrous knights, and romance. She was raised to be a typical woman of the period the story is based on and dreamt of becoming the maidens in the stories. It’s not wild that she saw the royal family, specifically Joffrey and the Queen, through rose tinted glasses. Joffrey was the Handsome Prince and Cersei was the Queen, what she wanted to be. Not to mention Joffrey and Cersei did not show their true, psychopathic colors until it was too late and Sansa was utterly alone. There were signs, but as the reader, we have an outside perspective of what’s actually happening. Sansa, as a 13 year old girl, did not.

2. Going to Cersei when faced with the fact that she was going to be removed from court and was not going to be marrying Joffrey: the discussion I had with another fan was that Sansa Was Not To Blame For Ned’s Death. She did not betray him. She had been told that she was going to marry the prince, one day become queen, and have royal babies. Cersei had taken her under her wing and given her tips and what to expect as Queen. For better or worse. Regardless, Cersei became an important person for Sansa, a role model. Someone who knows the court and how to navigate it. She didn’t have her mother. Sansa didn’t know what Ned had discovered. Sansa didn’t know what Ned had planned. Sansa didn’t know who knew what Ned knew. Sansa’s vision was honed in on one thing: not leaving King’s Landing.

I see these two things brought up consistently by people who don’t like Sansa and love to compare her to Arya and Dany, two other strong, female characters in the story. “They’re proactive, they make their own decisions! They make mistakes and learn from them!”

Unlike Arya and Dany, Sansa does not have reliable counsel, or at the very least, someone to look out for her with good intentions. Sansa does not have three dragons, or an army, or handmaidens, or advisors to help her navigate the politics and relationships around her like Dany did. Sansa does not have a group of friends, or a protector, or a teacher to show her how to defend herself.

Sansa had to stay behind in King’s Landing and face punishments for things she did not do, for simply being related to perceived traitors of the crown.

Arya, Dany, and Sansa all went through abusive, dangerous situations. But the way one handles it versus another does not make any of them lesser than the other. Dany is learning how to be a Queen. Arya is learning how to survive and become the “knight” she wanted to be (or a fighter in general, girl just has some spunk in her). Sansa is learning how to play The Game. All three have a lot to lose, and all three must navigate it differently.

You especially lost me here. Are you referring to the books or the show here because Arya never, ever said that she wanted to be a knight. That was Bran.

Maybe knight was the wrong word but Arya was always adamant about wanting to learn how to fight with a sword, to explore, and named her Direwolf after a warrior-queen. Maybe fighter or warrior was the better word.

I dispute that as well. Arya is a natural-born leader, but is certainly no warrior. Here's some of the things she wanted to do, asked back in Game.

Nymeria is called a "warrior queen" but didn't actually take up arms in battle.

Also, regarding your initial post, the author himself has this to say, back in 1999:

[Source]

Arya's main question has always been "why are men allowed things that they are allowed , and women are limited to home and hearth". This may not have been her exact words but this is what comes through her story. Your blog says that you are Team Black op- surely you must understand that this topic of what women are allowed in Westeros, is a topic that Grrm revisits pretty often.

Arya asks Ned if she can be a connoisseur of knowledge (maester), an architect (building castles), a politician in charge of realm ( sitting in the king's small council) and gets told that all of these are the fates of her sons and not her. That's fucked up and that is the point Grrm is trying to make. When Arya remains adamant about learning swordplay, it is not because she wants to become a warrior and make it her whole personality. She is trying to snatch up every little opportunity to learn things she enjoy, but is not allowed to her on account of her being a girl. Her parallel with Nymeria isn't that of her wanting to pick up a sword ( Nymeria never did), it is of leadership. Nymeria is a warrior queen because she led her men into battle and then made decisions for her people's future as a leader.

What you do in playing up the "arya wanted to be a knight thing" is make Arya a mere muscle. From being a womb to being a muscle- is not subversion.

To add to these good points regarding Arya:

@meleys-the-red-queen:

So I don't really have much problem with Sansa's book character as written. I think she's a fairly realistic, relatable 11-year old girl for her time and class. My biggest issue with Sansa's character is her treatment toward and dismissiveness of Arya, which I would regard as bullying and not healthy (or typical) sibling rivalry. I don't think it's okay for siblings to be telling one another they should have been killed/they should have died/or any variation thereof. As GRRM said, Sansa and Arya do have deep issues to work out and I don't think it will be simply dismissed with a brush under the rug in one "all is forgiven" scene ala the show.

However, a number of Sansa's stans or fans like to place Sansa on this pedestal of her being "the smartest" among the Starks, if not among all the characters in ASOIAF. The thing is, most of the Stark kids clued in on Joffrey being a giant dick just about immediately (including Arya, who is two years younger than Sansa) whereas Sansa is still defending Joffrey and her image of him even after she witnesses Joffrey nearly kill her own sister. Arya and Sansa were raised in the same household with the same teachers under the same parents, yet it takes Sansa the entire book here to see Joffrey for what he truly is. It takes Joffrey having Ned executed for Sansa to wake up to the truth. Yes, I understand Sansa had a puppy crush on Joffrey and her head was fully saturated with fairytale images but Sansa still holds onto these things even after she witnesses Joffrey threaten Arya's life, after she sees Cersei demand to have Sansa's wolf killed, and after Ned tells Sansa what a piece of crap Joffrey is. I think that's pretty significant. I trust GRRM when he says Sansa has her wits and I trust, if we ever see the books, we'll see that properly develop in a far more plausible way than what crap took place in the show but I do think Sansa was strangely loyal to the fairytale she held on to in the first book and yes -- to a fault -- even at the potential expense of Arya's life. Arya, whom Sansa rather blamed for Lady's death instead of Cersei and Joffrey. And Sansa has yet to reflect on these actions or on her treatment of Arya.

This is the most 'she ran away' paragraph ever written. 😂😂😂

Oh, yeah, Rhaegar 'fell upon her', in Harrenhal. She was supposed to be in Riverrun, how did she get to Harrenhal in the first place? Did she say 'I'm going to buy milk' and never return? 😂😂

A fun thought exercise would be to think about what would happen if Robert Baratheon knew of Jon Snow’s true parentage and what Ned would do once Robert found out. 

Well, he would be quickly expedited to an institution like the NW but his so called choice would not even be considered this time. Ned would tell himself he’s actually doing great because he made a “deal other than death, though”, followed by Jon being assassinated in mysterious ways by totally mysterious people.

Ned would wallow in his usual self pity with “oh, is it me??? did I break my promise?? it didn’t have anything to do with me??? probably unrelated??” which literally helped no one ever but his guilty consciousness.

You know, I’m always wondering what he and Robert even have in common, but it’s definitely their lack of moral backbone. It’s easily showcased in the “Lady” episode. Robert does nothing and turns away, but it’s the “silence is an answer”. He’s going along with cruelty, but he refuses to attribute it to himself in his mind.

Ned just goes along with it openly while telling himself this is being proactive. Meanwhile, the cruel and corrupted have gotten their way, and the two BFFs just go back to their wallowing in their self pity, because what were the two most powerful men in the 7K even supposed to do??

i'm not saying aerys was right but he made some good points

via @intheairwewilllookmonstrous

I think the reason why Jon specifically dreams that his mother's eyes are kind is because growing up, his siblings' mother (the only mother figure he has seen) has done nothing but shoot daggers at him whenever she looked at him.

A Storm of Swords, Jon XII 

Jon Snow has always wondered about his mother. He has always wanted to know who she was, and what happened between her and his father Ned Stark.

It is interesting to notice that, in the beginning of his arc in A Game of Throne, he has dreamed of her as a highborn lady, beautiful and with kind eyes. His dreams about her were so often he could almost picture her, even if he did not get the chance to know who she was. He is also angered and starts a fight when, at the Night's Watch, someone mentions she might have been a whore — contrasting his own idea and dreams of her, and his notion that honorable Eddard Stark would never lie with a whore.

However, as his arc progresses, he concludes he does not care anymore about it. Were she a whore or not, he would like to know about her. He would be upfront and ask his father, who never talked about her, who she was.

I am very looking forward to the reveal about Jon's true parentage, when he will finally know about the mother he has so much dreamed of.

Janos Slynt saying that Jon has the mark of the beast on him and that his bastard blood is tainted and traitorous 🤝 the slavers of Essos spreading rumors about Dany being an oath breaking sorceress who feasts upon the blood of virgins

Brienne and Dany both follow an abstract moral contract, rather than the explicit, conventional, restricted feudal contract typical of rulers and high lords. 

For instance, while a Knight is sworn to protect the innocent, Brienne often references what a “true” Knight should do: 

For Brienne, then, being a true Knight is not about your gender, the flashiness, the quality of your sword, or how bulky you are as a fighter. It’s about your willingness to protect the people, to die in the attempt if need be. This is a more abstract moral contract because rather than pledging to one group of people, or needing to be Knighted to officially follow this contract, Brienne’s values are inherent to her, in that she believes true Knights will protect those that are vulnerable. 

The same is true of Daenerys, who rather than merely protecting a group of serfs contractually bound to House Targaryen, more generally believes that a Queen must protect her people no matter where she goes. 

Whether in the Red Waste with a 100-strong Khalasar that is 70% non-combatant, a host of 80,000 freedmen, less than 10% of whom had some kind of weapon or ability to fight, or the freedmen of Slaver’s Bay in general, Daenerys believes that a Queen’s duty is to her people, that she belongs to them first before to herself. 

Both Brienne and Daenerys, then, embody ideals that transcend traditional feudal contract between lord and serf, or knight and civilian. No matter where they are, what oath they’ve sworn, or who it’s for, Brienne and Daenerys believe that a true Knight, or a true King (Queen), is sworn to protect their people, despite the odds stacked against them. What’s especially interesting about this is that their gender serves as a barrier toward the actual office in question: women cannot become Knights, and becoming a Queen Regnant is truly difficult. Daenerys is exiled, which makes her task harder, and Brienne is an unconventional, gender non-conforming woman, making her more alienated. As outcasts in addition to being women, this lends them their moral values that they put directly into practice in AFFC and ADWD. Brienne and Daenerys inherently have these values, but they also learn and grow as a result of their experiences. 

And though Brienne and Daenerys doubt themselves (Brienne saying she could never be a knight, Daenerys calling herself the mother of monsters) and berate themselves constantly, the narrative does not showcase them as naive and idealistic for having this set of values, but rather as being compassionate, empathetic heroines who are necessary for the rebuilding Westeros will see. 

elio garcia’s take on lyanna and rhaegar meeting in harrenhal for the second time

I thought I would write a little about Jon’s colorful and eclectic group of side characters at the Wall.

Keep reading

The whole prediction that fAegon is going to win the throne against Cersei, only to face Dany when she arrives in King’s Landing and things inevitably goes up in flames is deeply annoying to hear. It seems to pop up a lot with male commentators, though I’ve seen some women peddle this too. The problem is that it’s rather misogynistic and disregards the basics of this story.

fAegon, who just recently changed his battle plans, is suddenly ready to attack King’s Landing against a ticking time bomb Cersei and wins, then will have the complete, undying loyalty of the masses that Dany will be cast as the mad queen in their eyes.

Couple of things about that.

1. Even with a large army, success is never a guarantee. Stannis had a larger number of forces than the Lannisters did. He had ships and forces that highly stacked the deck in his favor. Throughout ACOK, it was assumed that he was going to seize the city. What happened though? At the last minute, between the wildfire and the sudden alliance between the Lannisters and the Reach ended with Stannis’s defeat.

It only takes one change in plans, one turn of luck for things to go south.

The Freefolk had an overwhelming number of armies, but they could not take the wall. Size, numbers, they don’t always guarantee victory. It also depends on the commanders, the generals, and just the luck that develops through the course of the battle.

2. King’s Landing is incredibly difficult to take without dragons. The only reason Robert’s forces overtook King’s Landing is because they were let in. Stannis, as mentioned above, struggled to even get inside the city. This city is meant to withstand sieges, and as they currently have food, they can repel forces for awhile.

3. The people loving fAegon and choosing him over the Lannisters is also a bit erroneous to assume right off the bat. Stannis was invading post riots and after Tyrion had burned a bit of Flea Bottom to create defenses. This was right at the time where the smallfolk were literally tearing men apart for meat. Still, when Stannis attacked, they didn’t wildly embrace him.

We’ve seen from Arya’s POV chapters that the smallfolk don’t care about the fight for the throne. They don’t care about the matters involving the high lords, they only care that they are starving and the war ravages the land, ultimately effecting them. For them to turn around and embrace this boy claiming to be Aegon Targaryen seems unlikely.

The show might have been that superficial, but we’ve never seen the people show much interest in the squabble for titles or power. They want food, stability and not to be raided and/or killed.

4. fAegon even winning is not a foregone conclusion. Aside from the tricky odds, you have two characters that have already established they are willing to burn the world down rather than let the other side win. Cersei is compared often to the Mad King and Jon Con’s greatest regret is not burning the city that Robert was supposedly hiding in. If the battle shifts one way or another, between these two, they’re going to light a match. You don’t need dragons for King’s Landing to go up, we’ve got two candidates you are extremely ready to burn it down.

5. Dany has a *ton* to do before even getting to Westeros. There’s the Meereen storyline to wrap up, everything with the Dothraki, the rest of Slaver’s Bay/Pentos/Lys/Etc. She’s also got the Ironborn to deal with and a maester coming to her to warn her about the Others. Somewhere in all of this, she’s going to set this stuff aside and head straight to King’s Landing because fAegon might get the throne? It’s not feasible for two books. It’s not as if GRRM is doing crazy time jumps. He’s already scrapped that idea. Whether for good or bad, things are playing out without any fast forwarding. In two books, one of them being the large scale battle against the others and the resolution, Dany doesn’t have time to go to King’s Landing and get involved in yet another battle.

6. The whole idea that Dany will respond with jealousy that fAegon is loved by the people of King’s Landing discounts a lot of Dany’s character. She’s never done things to be loved or adored by the masses, she’s done it because she wants to do what’s right and to protect others. She’s talked about wanting to see her people smile and to keep them safe and happy. Suddenly not being the biggest favorite all around goes against what’s been established for her. It’s also really sexist. A woman not automatically getting the love a man is getting so she goes berserk or too ruthless? 

Just the more I hear about this theory, the more it doesn’t fit to me. I deeply wish it would die.

You know if given the choice, I’d rather have the option of killing the man who stole me away to be his wife than to be given in an arranged marriage.

It’s funny that Jon couldn’t get that but again he is a man and wouldn’t understand that women don’t have choices like that in the “civilized “ world because if they did kill their abusive husband they’d be hanged or something.

indeed, the Free Folk's way of "marriage" is treated as savage and violent, yet the women are trained to fight, and are within their rights to stab an unwanted man who tries to marry them

meanwhile, the quiet violence of arranged marriages in Westeros is seen as proper, within which women are educated to stay demure and willing when married to unwanted men