Ok I’m watching Empire strikes back for the first time in a long while and literally Leia kissing Luke is in fact (plausibly) framed as Leia kissing the closest available body that wasn’t Chewbacca or C-3PO, simply to spite Han. No actual attraction necessary at all
Still would’ve been more comfortable for everyone if she’d chosen Chewbacca tho
I feel like people miss the point of the "war is bad" message
What it's supposed to mean is that war is terrible, it's destructive, it ruins lives, it leaves scars, and you should only partake in it when there are no other options, because even if you win, even if you survive, you will not be the same, which is why the phrase used to be more commonly known as "war is hell"
But "war is bad" seems to have been construed by people in fandom (and more worryingly in real life too) into "any fighting is bad, if you fight you're morally terrible and impure, you should not fight at all, no matter what"
And that's almost never the point of "War is Bad" works
Works like lotr, atla, transformers, the clone wars, etc all have themes on how horrible war is, but they categorically do not say it is wrong to fight, what they say is usually along the lines of "war is terrible, and what makes it so terrible is that we have no choice but to fight, it would be ideal if we didn't have to fight at all, but we must fight, because not fighting is not an option, because not fighting, not opposing tyranny, conquest, and evil only allows those things to exist unimpeded"
In Star Wars, I think the “any fighting is bad” often falls out of well intentioned interpretations of Luke tossing away his lightsaber in ROTJ. It can look like it’s saying:
Luke gave up his weapon and refused to kill Vader or Sidious in his climactic moment, so fighting is always bad, even when you’re gonna die.
But crucially, Sidious is killed bare moments later, by Anakin, and it is a good thing. The best thing. It’s paralleled with the rebellion blowing up the second Death Star, a weapon of mass genocide. These are both violent acts that result in the death of one or many people, which the narrative informs us are good. Anakin killing Sidious is his return to Jedi-hood as much as Luke not killing Vader is his commitment to Jedi-hood.
So why does the seeming contradiction work?
Because it’s not just about what the characters do, it’s about why. Star Wars cares deeply about motivations.
Luke
When Luke nearly kills Vader, he is doing it because he is angry, and because he hates Vader for threatening Leia and for cutting off his hand. Vader is suddenly helpless before him, and Luke considers it. Considers taking revenge, perhaps justifying it to himself that Vader is still dangerous. But he steps back, looks at his hand not as an injury to himself, but in combination with Vader’s missing arm as a warning of the cycle of violence that Luke too is vulnerable to becoming a part of. It is not that killing to prevent harm is bad, it is that, for Luke, to kill Vader in this moment would be to kill a helpless man for revenge. Luke realizes the state he is in at that moment is so vulnerable to that cycle of violence that he cannot even hold a weapon, and remain himself. Remain a Jedi.
Anakin
Vader, on the other hand, has been waiting to either kill Luke or be killed by him—he has not made a strong decision either way because the good in him has been stirred but not enough, not yet, because he is still attached to his own life and to Sidious. He believes the victor of their fight will inevitably go on to serve Sidious, no matter what he does. Inaction and indecision have always plagued Anakin. When he finally—at the very last instant possible—chooses to save Luke, his intentions are pure. He really, truly, wants Luke to live, even if it means that Anakin will die in the effort. He lets go of—detaches himself from—Sidious, his own desire to live forever, and even the possibility of being able to spend time with Luke, and he walks into the lightning to save Luke’s life. Save Luke happens to require killing Sidious, but Anakin is not killing Sidious because he wants revenge for the past, or even because he is angry with him for hurting Luke. It is simply the path to saving Luke. Anakin is, for the first time in a long time, finally escaping, nay ending, a cycle of violence. The fact a little fighting (yeeting) is required to accomplish that makes it no less the action of a Jedi.
Intention matters in Star Wars. Luke has his father’s flaw, and he must do something extreme to save himself from his father’s fate. He must throw away the weapon entirely, because he is not capable of using it to defend, in that moment. Only to express anger or exact revenge. Other Jedi might have been able to safely make other choices on the Death Star. Not everyone would have had to toss their lightsaber away: some could have merely turned it off, others could have turned it to fight Sidious, the person who was not helpless, and others still would never have gotten caught up in anger on the first place.
There was never only one choice, one way to be a Jedi. Recall if you will,
[ID: screenshot of Obi-Wan on the lava planet Mustafar in revenge of the Sith as he says the line, “only a Sith deals in absolutes.” Obi-Wan is framed standing next to a sun partly hidden behind clouds. Below the image that same line is written in Curly cursive text. End ID]
if Star Wars had the internet Anakin would fall down an alt right pipeline so fast it’s not even funny. thought 1 is this doesn’t change the plot at all cuz he already said shit like that. thought 2 is him accidentally confessing to mass murder by posting to the wrong account
Picture this. It starts as your regular crack filled social media AU, clones and jedi posting things, laughing, whatever. They’re doing it because the propaganda people thought it would be a good idea, but they are generally having fun with it, maybe there are some plans to use the exposure for good things like accountability and public sympathy etc. Maybe incorporate some actual scenes so that’s available as an option for later in the plot, or maybe it’s all done as documentation/social media format.
Anakin’s public account is popular for him being hot and ‘cause of existing “Hero with no Fear” propaganda. He mostly posts action shots taken by r2 or the 501st or activities with Ahsoka, nothing particularly deep, just fulfilling the assignment. Most of the jedi do a bit more activist photography, highlighting damage and deaths, or places in need of aid, but Anakin’s account isn’t far out of the norm, except in how much attention it gets.
Gonna start saying unhinged shit about the twins like “leia inherited her sass from dooku" and "luke got his smile from breha organa”
I was clearly limiting myself. Grogu gets his taste in frogs from Tarre Vizsla
Jango Fett obviously inherited his hatred for Jedi from Sargent Slick
Luke inherited his kindness from Mon Mothma, him mum. and Leia got her intelligence from Admiral Akbar, her father.
…is a YA trope.
And this is not to insult the trope or the genre of YA—“I feel like I’m feeling more feelings than anybody has ever felt,” is a defining part of the teenage experience for a lot of people! There’s a reason this trope exists primarily in YA, and it is GOOD that those kinds of stories exist for people who feel this way to relate to, teenager or otherwise.
But this trope doesn’t exist in all stories, and applying it to stories intended for adults or for younger kids—or even YA stories that aren’t using it—is weird. It’s understandable that it happens when people seeing those characters are teenagers or read mostly YA stuff—our past experiences determine our understanding of present experiences—but it is very limiting not to be able to get out of that headspace of “narrator is special and can do special things because they feel more feelings.” There are so many non YA stories—and frankly real life adult situations—that are literally impossible to navigate from that perspective.
Star wars is about learning to understand yourself and the world, and then deciding how you are going to respond to the world. It is delivering a moral lesson, and while it uses relatability on some level to accomplish that (the flaws Anakin and Luke have are flaws all people have to some extent) relatability is not the primary goal.
All this is to say, Star Wars, while it is a relatively simple archetypal myth, is not interested in this trope at all. Anakin and Luke neither “love more” nor “feel pain in some deeper more interesting way” than other people. The difference in how Anakin and Luke respond to their intense but non-special feelings is where the moral lesson grounds itself, and how we know it’s useful for real people.
(note: your local tumblr post cannot account for every single relationship to emotions ever, but is aware that different people feel different emotions with different frequency, and that brain chemistry exists and can be very rude)
Nothing particularly changes about the story over all when you realize that Obi-Wan being able to help Luke take out the Death Star was because of Qui-Gon researching and discovering the Force ghost technique from the mysterious whoevers which was probably the long term result of having Master “obsessed with mysterious force artifacts” Dooku for a master, but it did make me want to curl up in a ball and be sad-happy for a bit.
These pesky Jedi always saving the world with their connections, and their teaching, and even their greatest flaws
it’s not an accident that that Yoda says to luke “a Jedi must have the most serious mind,” after acting like the silliest goofiest senilest little guy, in fact it might be the most important part
you know what don’t listen to me, this guy gets it
AITA for striking my (M43) son (M20) when he rejected me as his father?
I understand that the title might have you thinking the worst, but please hear me out.
I didn't have a relationship with my son for basically all his life. This was due to my circumstances at the time: I went through a major personal tragedy and was severely injured, to the point of being on life support. To this day I have a lot of issues with my health.
I recently reconnected with my son. I immediately invited him to meet my boss (M92), in hopes that I could set him up with a job opportunity. I feel that this is significant. As far as I know, my son has been working in menial jobs in agriculture, but then apparently chose to leave that life and - to my shock - join a criminal syndicate.
I felt as if getting a good government job would be a way to turn over a new leaf in his life, especially given his past. However, he immediately became combative. I attempted to give him some guidance in managing his emotions, but he rejected that as well.
I'm sad to say that the argument became physical. Some blows were exchanged, but in the end, I was angry enough to strike him. I immediately felt very bad, and decided to offer him the government job on the spot. He rejected me again, and chose to leave very abruptly. I haven't had any contact with him since.
So, AITA?
Edit: Yes, I admit that to call it striking him was an understatement. To clarify, I cut off his hand.
Edit: However, I feel like it should be stated that I myself am a quadruple amputee and we have excellent healthcare.
Edit: I did not immediately identify myself as his father when we met. I think this was my mistake. I think he would have been much more receptive of my message had I done so. As it stands I only told him of our relationship after I had struck him.
Edit: My wife is not in the picture. To my knowledge she passed before his birth.
The CinemaTherapy video on Palpatine contains, I will say it nicely, opinions about the Jedi in general that I disagree with, (I love most of their videos, and their advice on avoiding manipulation in this one is useful and good, I hope it helps people, etcetera) but what I want to talk about is the specific moment where they mention Mace Windu for literally half a second.
At 14:07-14:29, they say, (copying directly from the episode transcript):
Jono: But what Anakin is not mature enough or mindful enough or experienced enough to be aware of, is that he's being steered right, and that Palpatine is doing it deliberately to drive a wedge between Anakin and the people he cares about and who care about him. At least a few of them do. Um, not Mace. Mace. Come on...
Anakin [ROTS clip]: I must go, Master.
Mace [ROTS clip]: No.
Alan: Do better, man.
Jono: Do better, Mace.
I firmly don’t know what explanation there is for this other than tone policing of a black man. Whether it’s CinemaTherapy’s problem specifically, or if they’ve just been drinking the fandom koolaid I don’t know, but it’s a problem either way. Let me explain.
The casualness of the remarks is wild. There is a full eyeroll, and several *theatrically* shaken heads. The transcript does not fully convey how out of place it feels watching it. It's almost to the point where I really want to give the benefit of the doubt and believe it's sarcasm, but the rest of the video does really not support that assumption. (If this is my failure of interpreting other humans, and it was sarcasm, then forgive me, I suppose).
I’m not even sure what aspect of Mace's behavior toward Anakin they’re addressing? The ROTS clip they choose to play of him—presumably an attempt to highlight whatever they’re talking about—is from Mace telling Anakin to stay behind when he's going to face Palpatine.
Of all the moments, if I was ever going to try and construct a “Mace is mean to Anakin specifically narrative,” I would not pick that one? It’s quite literally the chillest interaction they have in all three movies? If I was them, and trying to actually showcase an “Anakin’s doesn’t get enough affirmation or connection from the Jedi,” narrative, I would choose a scene like when Mace says Anakin won’t be trained. At least there you could make a argument that the council’s decision could’ve been explained a bit less bluntly, and that there’s something of a “conversations that adults should be having privately are instead occurring in front of a child” situation.
The casualness of the remark, the “Do better, Mace” and the knowing head shakes, those matter. The way they’re just tossed in, as if every audience member will instantly agree and chuckle at how of course Mace Windu is being mean and rude, they tell the casual Star Wars viewer that this is a universally accepted position, when it is not.
It also supposes the idea that Mace owes Anakin special emotional labor. A relationship therapist might, I don’t know, consider the relationship between Anakin, Mace, and the very relevant context of the interaction before making this judgement? Mace is not one of Anakin’s friends, confidants, or even a member of his lineage. He is, especially in the moment they chose to highlight, the leader of the Jedi Order. Anakin’s boss, to oversimplify, and the leader of Anakin’s people, to say the truth. He’s worried about the fate of the entire galaxy at that specific moment!
And guess what? He’s not even being rude, at all. He’s being direct, that’s it.
If they had chosen to highlight the line, "If what you have told me is true, you will have gained my trust," and talked about Mace not trusting Anakin, I might have been willing to humor this argument out of respect for the relevant textual evidence and for the sake of having some peace. But no, in their own words, this is about, "Anakin and the people he cares about and who care about him." This remark is about care, not trust.
And guess what again? Despite all of the other things he has to think about, Mace is considering Anakin’s feelings here. He isn’t telling Anakin to stay behind because he doesn’t want Anakin to be allowed to participate is the cool fun lethal lightsaber duel. He does it because Anakin is emotionally compromised. Even if you think of the the Jedi as flawed, you cannot think taking Anakin to fight Sidious would be a good, safe, or healthy idea? Would you take the person who you’re just figuring out has probably been groomed for years into a violent confrontation with their abuser?
Mace Windu is doing everything, thinking of everything, and caring about everything in this scene, and yet fans still find fault with him. They still find him insufficient and mean.
Opinions like these are not subtle, they are not cute, and they are deeply influenced by what Mace looks like in relationship to what to what Anakin looks like.
Step back, examine scenes for what actually occurs in them, rather than what larger fandom and larger society tells you is happening in them. This is the core of analyzing and creating art. What do you see in the world that others do not? I beg of you, see Mace Windu for once.
(If I was going harder, I would talk about how I think their very lame opinions of the Jedi are causing them to actually miss some of the depth of Sidious’ manipulation (including leaving out so much as a mention of the scene where Obi-Wan very explicitly tells Anakin he’s proud of him), but again, for the interpretation they’ve decided on their advice seems good, so I’ll leave it alone.)
See how I know am pretty sure it's that CinemaTherapy has picked up anti-jedi sentiment, is that in other episodes they literally talk about exactly the things yoda says to anakin in how they define healthy love and relationships--often in the exact same language too! Literally the phrase letting go is used almost every time they talk about divorce. They talk about how holding onto fear stops us from building healthy relationships every time there is a relationship where secrets are kept. Even when they talk about grief, they talk about how taking the good things you learned from that person, or even specifically from their death, is a wonderful and better thing to do than just clinging to your own pain. (Most of these examples are coming from the Ted Lasso episode)
Their Luke episode is in fact another thing where it's full of a lot of great commentary and then there are just moments of completely annoying, or at least far over simplified, criticism of the prequel Jedi.
Ugh
But, you know, it is ultimately a good reminder that just because people have weird takes about a particular piece of media, it doesn't automatically mean that they are stupid or bad in general. Bad fandom takes are just that--fandom takes, influenced by the social culture and opinions of other fandom people. A person can take a "yoda basically told Anakin to stuff his feelings" (an actual quote from their luke episode) stance, and in real life hold true and dear the idea that letting go of attachments that are causing you pain is a good idea.
Humans are weird like that.
I have only read three of Jane Austen's books so there are lots of repitions and I may be missing some comparisons, but:
Gonna start saying unhinged shit about the twins like “leia inherited her sass from dooku" and "luke got his smile from breha organa”
i really love your take on mace & depa's relationship in playing the lyre and i just finished reading shatterpoint, which made me crazy by virtue of mace calling her the daughter he'd never have within the first fifteen pages!! do you happen to have any more general thoughts about what they had going on :0
an opportunity is afoot i get to talk about mace!
i actually really dig mace, and a lot of it is because there's a lot of interesting stuff with him in the legends republic comics, particularly surrounding his relationship to the war and the jedi order and the senate. there's several other extra-canon materials that kind of flesh this idea out further, particularly one segment from a novel (it may be the ROTS novelization?) where obi-wan thinks sadly that the dark side has really clouded mace's sight in the force, because mace says something distrusting of the chancellor, which a) implies insane things about obi-wan and b) implies really cool stuff about mace. so in my head i've kind of tried to delve into that a lot more, which has affected strongly how i see him and by relation depa.
a couple things:
anyway, i say all of that to explain why i think mace is cool, because maybe the reasons i think mace is cool are pretty extrapolated from what we're shown, but that's the fun in doing the fandom thing anyway. as for how this makes me see his relationship with depa, what i have here is a vision of mace that is inherently defined by a protective, watchful urge; he trains depa in vapaad so she can protect herself without him, because, in essence, that's what the entire form is about. i think it's wildly cool that mace invented a Sword Love Language that he and his padawan speak.
one thing that happens a lot in legends - like, a lot a lot - is the idea of jedi stumbling across force sensitive babies and bringing them back to the temple, and because it happens so often, i like to think this is a documented tradition, that jedi who find force sensitive children almost always take that child as a padawan later because the force pushed them together. a lot of lines in legends allude to them thinking of each other as family, or outright say it; i like the idea that this mutual and they're both aware of how strongly they feel for each other, but it's largely unspoken, because, you know, lol, not to get into attachments discourse, but if anakin's love of his mother is considered attachment (and it is), so is depa's love for mace. non-negotiable no debates in the notes haha. leave me be for once please.
but that tension - the truth of this relationship and the fact that they can't help but for it to be true, despite being some of the most accomplished jedi in the order, the fact that i held you when you were a baby, i saved you as a child, but we can't ever say that - really plays into all of the things i already love about mace's role in these extra-canon stories. he has such great moments of being somewhat aware that he's living in a tragedy, from his grief over jedi leaving the order over political philosophy, from his grief in the legends republic comics when he feels responsible for sending quinlan vos into missions he thinks contributed to quinlan's seeming fall to the dark side, his mounting distrust of palpatine and how that one paragraph from obi-wan's point of view would imply that mace was thought less of for voicing that distrust of palpatine. there's a bit in legends where depa picks up a force sensitive child from their parents, to bring to the order; this isn't a rescue, like she personally experienced. and she has a moment where she's like is this right? am i potentially doing something wrong here? and mace reassures her that this is necessary.
but imagine the messy, ooey gooey emotional and ideological conflict that comes in when you embrace the idea that mace himself starts experiencing disillusionment with the republic later down the line; is the war justified? is what the war's doing to the jedi as a whole worth it? is the republic worth saving? the tension of characters who start realizing they're in a tragedy and start poking at its seams is delicious, and it makes mace's death actually a little bit gutting. there goes the frog that realized the water was boiling. the jig is up. i really hate that mace is so often tied into the standard Power Of The Council, like his presence is associated with authority, when there are so many instances of him rightfully questioning it, when there's so much you can extrapolate about mace that makes him pretty fucking cool when you do embrace that conflict, that tension.
this is what i wish fandom understood; conflict makes characters good. to learn about anyone you have to sharpen their personality against a whetstone, see how they respond to it. this is the good stuff. this gives me a picture of a guy staring at his commlink in the middle of the night during the war, thinking of the way depa was crying into his shoulder when he saved her as a child, missing her presence and stuck in this tangled web of circumstances that prevent him from fully realizing how against this he's starting to become. this gives me a picture of a guy who offers asylum to droids - literal weapons of war - because no one sees the effect of this catastrophic violence more than the man who is witness to every funeral, more than the man watching his people kill and be killed. and his reward for his loyalty to the republic in spite of all of this is betrayal. fucking GUTTING. i want to see it ten more times. one of these days i will fuck around and finally write the "mace hits his breaking point and denounces the war to the council, abstaining in protest and this sparks SO MUCH jedi drama" fic i have always wanted to ONE OF THESE DAYS
This recalls for me probably the best (maybe second best idk) moment in the Shatterpoint novel—spoilers ahead because it’s right near the end.
Note: I’m gonna call the darkside the evil-side and the light side the good-side—even though it sounds kind of silly ik—for the reasons noted in the tags.
There’s a moment after Depa has fallen and Mace is having to duel her to get to the controls so he can stop an entire city from being bombed where Mace realises that the only way for him to keep going in the fight and win it is to kill Depa. She is only getting stronger in the evil-side (because of other more complicated stuff going on in the larger fight), while Mace has been stabbed, he’s been going for probably more than 24 hours in and out of constant battles at this point, always making new plans never giving into despair.
So Mace is exhausted, he needs to get to those controls or thousands to millions of people are going to die, and the only way to win the fight is by killing Depa.
But crucially, he also realises that for him, killing Depa would destroy him. As a person, he simply could not do that without drawing on the evil-side.
He can’t win the fight.
He nearly despairs.
He comes to the edge of killing her.
But then he realises something:
The thing telling him that his duel with Depa is the important fight, that killing her is the only way to save those people—that’s the evil-side.
And Mace turns off his lightsaber. If I remember rightly, he won’t turn it back on for the rest of the book.
Instead of fighting Depa, he lays down his sword and retreats. Instead of clashing against her he dodges, backing away, until she puts her own blade through the control panel he needed to get to, and the bombing is stopped.
It’s possible another Jedi could’ve killed their Padawan, mourned her, and remained Good, but not Mace Windu.
And the really magical thing here? The reason this is the best moment?
That’s Luke’s decision too. Almost to the letter.
He faces a person who has given into evil, done terrible things, whom he is personally angry with (Luke staring at his prosthetic and clenching it while standing over Vader is absolutely personal anger—which he ultimately chooses to turn into empathy when he looks at Vader’s own severed hand yeah—do not argue with me here), and whom he loves anyway.
Luke as a person cannot kill Anakin, at least not out of anything but anger and vengeance. Obi-Wan could and did face that choice; he killed Anakin (or thought he did), mourned him, and remained in the light. But Luke couldn’t.
The only non-evil-side action which remained to Luke then, was to lay down his sword and beg his father to save him. Not to kill Vader, or to recklessly begin a duel with Sidious that he couldn’t win (as he did with Vader in ESB), but to realize that the real fight is not the one fought with lightsabers, but the one for his soul and his father’s soul. Anything which says otherwise is the evil-side.
These scenes are practically identical except for one detail:
Luke has Palpatine hanging over his shoulder, representing the evil-side’s interests, saying creepy shit like “good, your hate has made you powerful.” If you look at the scene, the moment Palpatine starts talking is actually what pulls Luke out of his head. He looks at his hand—the one Vader chopped off—then at Vader’s lopped off arm; he sees the cycle of violence forming before his eyes. Then he takes a very visible deep breath and turns around to face Sidious. If Sidious had stfu and waited, I think there’s a decent chance Luke would’ve fallen.
Mace doesn’t have Sidious over his shoulder with his creepy voice and awful little hand to remind him of what genre of story he’s in. He’s alone with Depa and the evil-side, yet he makes the same choice. And this isn’t a criticism of Luke at all—it’s a mark of Mace’s training and experience, and it actually highlights another point of similarity between the scenes:
Depa’s careless lightsaber swing stops the bombing; Sidious tips Luke off to the fact he can’t kill Vader. Evil always undermines itself, and so long as someone chooses good, they can find the weaknesses and defeat it.
That is why good is said to be always stronger than evil in Star Wars—it builds itself up, rather than destroying everything, including itself.
Contrary to people who love to hate, Mace would probably be the person most sympathetic the Luke’s choice, because he made the same one himself. Had he been around, I think he might have openly disagreed with Obi-Wan and Yoda to offer Luke this alternate path.
I do not think it a coincidence that Mace Windu’s death signalled the beginning of the purge, or that the death of—to use @husborth’s words—this ferocious protector was what sealed Anakin’s fall.
Luke’s choice is not some newfangled idea, never thought of before. It is as old as the stars, it is the Good which Luke brings back to the galaxy.
augh this is such a great addition, i didn't think to compare the two but you're exactly right. my brain is spinning about mace windu right now, this is great. thank you!!!!
Wait wait wait I missed an incredibly important parallel:
Anakin cut off both their hands!
There’s probably something beautiful and deep there, that goes along with both of them putting their sabers down (the opposite of the mistake that cost anakin his arm) and I’ll dredge it up one day maybe. For now though:
*in a random rebellion training room post ESB*
Luke: …and then my father cut my hand off and I had to get out of there really quickly if I didn’t want to die of shock. Can I ask, how you, uhhh *waves his own mechanical hand awkwardly* lost yours? Just if you don’t mind?
Mace:
Mace: you’re not gonna believe this—
Meanwhile,
Ghost Obi-Wan: oof y’all lost limbs fighting anakin? sounds like a skill issue
It's always "the Jedi failed at this," "Anakin should've done that," and never "Darth Sidious is so good at his job, he deserves to get Sith Lord of the month."
#darth sidious was bad at his job anakin really is that stupid lol#but also cinema therapy does a great episode on both anakin and palpatine#id recommend them theyre interesting listens :)
@rowenwolf I will in fact insist Sidious is in fact so incredibly good at his job and the CinemaTherapy video only emphasizes that fact, but,,,
oof this is so funny of you to put this on my post. I've seen both of those episodes of CinemaTherapy they have some great points but their opinions on the Jedi are so incredibly…uhh…(I will be nice because they're cool people in general)…luke warm at best (pun fully intended, and more meaningful than initially realized)…and the palpatine vid caused me to go on something of a rant about internalized racism, so there's that. Someday I'll go on the full rant about how I think their jedi opinions are causing them to miss some of the depth of Sidious' skill at manipulation, but that day is not today
Honestly their takes have put me off watching their video on Luke, even though I'm kind of interested.
I genuinely love Luke and Yoda’s relationship and think it’s WAY underrated. Do I love Luke’s relationship with Anakin? Yes, so very much. Do I love Luke’s relationship with Obi-Wan? Also, yes, so very much. But what I love about Yoda and Luke is that Yoda is the one Luke spent the most amount of time with, where they spent days, weeks, possibly even months together, the kind of time where you know someone’s eating and sleeping and burping habits, where you know them on a day to day kind of level. Yoda is the teacher that Luke had that with and it creates a kind of bond that’s unique to them. So, I love them for the big, epic moments–
–and I do love them for those big, epic moments, because– –say what you will about The Rise of Skywalker, seeing Luke’s Force Ghost raise that very same X-Wing out of the water that Yoda did once upon a time on Dagobah, to see the lessons that Yoda passed on to him, to see Luke be the one at peace with himself again, to honor what Yoda taught him–
That got me RIGHT IN THE FEELINGS PLACE. Jedi Master Luke Skywalker showing a student what can be done with the Force if you have the right training and the right discipline, if you face your fear and overcome it, not just once, but over an entire lifetime of it–miracles can happen. But I also love them for the silly moments, like their first introduction is an absolute DELIGHT and utterly iconic–
Yeah, sure, Yoda’s testing him, seeing how Luke treats someone he thinks is unimportant, seeing how Luke comports himself when not under the direct gaze of a Jedi Master, but Yoda’s also having FUN WITH IT, gleefully being a little shit stirring frog grandpa to deliberately egg Luke on. AND THAT’S NOT THE ONLY TIME:
“Stubborn and hard is your head. Soften it we will.” “I stood on my head to soften it?” “Mysterious are the ways of the Force.” “Did you make me stand on my head for two hours because I was annoying you??” “Very mysterious.” I CRACK UP EVERY TIME. THAT’S THE KIND OF THING I AM HERE FOR. EPIC, ICONIC DUOS, BUT ALSO PEOPLE WHO ARE DELIBERATELY TROLLING THE HELL OUT OF EACH OTHER BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAPPED TOGETHER ON A SWAMP PLANET FOR MONTHS ON END TOGETHER. And I love how much they came to really, truly matter to each other, how much Yoda was looking out for Luke, even when it came to the issue of Darth Vader. As GL says, it’s not that they’re training him to kill Vader, it’s that they need him to be willing to face the possibility that it may be unavoidable. And Yoda was worried–completely accurately, given what happened on Bespin and the aftermath of it, where Mark Hamill has multiple times said was like Luke committing suicide after he heard the truth–that Luke wasn’t ready to hear it yet. LUKE: Master Yoda… is Darth Vader my father? YODA: Rest I need. Yes. Rest. LUKE: Yoda, I must know. YODA: Your father he is. Told you, did he? LUKE: Yes. YODA: Unexpected this is. And unfortunate. LUKE: Unfortunate that I know the truth? YODA: No. Unfortunate that you rushed to face him… that incomplete was your training… that not ready for the burden were you. LUKE: I’m sorry.
Yoda cared deeply about Luke, wanted to protect him, and had a connection with him even after his death–Luke tells a woman on Lew’el that he still speaks to his Masters (Yoda and Obi-Wan, and possibly Anakin), smiling softly as he does so. And it’s one of the best moments in The Last Jedi, where Yoda shows up one more time to drag Luke Skywalker out of his self-defeating pit, in the most timeless of ways–by whacking Luke with his cane, as Yoda has done for generations of Jedi.
“Ahhh, Skywalker, missed you, have I.” Yoda is such a great mix of whimsical and cackling frog grandpa and serious wizened mentor in that scene, which is exactly what Luke needs to help drag him out of his pit, to get back up, dust himself off, and find his place in the galaxy again, as a Master teaching the student who needs his help, as a Jedi facing off against a dark sider, as a Jedi giving hope to the galaxy, as a Jedi sacrificing themselves to help others. Luke has many important relationships that I love very much, with his sister, with his father, with Han, with Chewbacca, with Artoo, with his father, with Obi-Wan, with his nephew, all of them are unique and fundamental to who he is. But Luke’s relationship with Yoda is just as fundamental to who he grew into being AND IS VASTLY UNDERAPPRECIATED. WE STAN YODA AND LUKE’S RELATIONSHIP IN THIS HOUSE.
Anakin: i think our kid is gonna be a girl
Padmé: I think our kid is gonna be a boy
Fandom: aww they were both right lmao
Me: actually Padmé was right, because while she gave birth to twins, neither of them were raised by Anakin and Padme, and when Luke and Leia learned about their bio-parents, only Luke ever called himself their kid.
Leia is an adult with agency and values who does not consider Anakin anything other than a genetic donor, and would actually hate for the person who tortured her and helped kill her parent and destroy her planet to be considered her father.
Genuinely the lack of respect for the concept of her adoptive parents being her actual parents, and the insistence that she gets all her traits from Anakin and Padme is incredibly weird. (Not aimed at AUs where Anakin is not a deadbeat fascist, write on). With Luke, Beru and Owen are so often erased from his story as though he was just always casting about for family—like he didn’t already have one—it’s insane. Like yeah he called them his uncle and aunt, but they were the people who raised him. Emotionally and logistically the roles they filled were those of parents.
Anyway I’m tired of hearing about how Leia’s righteous anger or her bravery and sense of humor are totally from Anakin and her involvement in politics is all Padme, when she has two caring, brave, intelligent, funny parents who were involved in both politics and the rebellion.
Tldr; Anakin and Padmé have one kid, his name is Luke, and the reason he’s their kid is because he, as an adult with agency and values, decided he was their kid.
I will never join the “Padmé was stupid to go to Mustafar” parade—she had valid reason to believe in the possibility of Anakin’s redemption—but there’s something awful in the fact that she didn’t have to witness either of his massacres.
Obi-Wan and Yoda walk past the bodies of their people—of their people’s children. Bail Organa goes to the temple and sees a kid get shot down trying to escape (more clones than Anakin, but still).
Padme hears about the second massacre after sitting in her apartment while the Temple was on fire. She’s told about them in vague terms. “I killed them like animals,” “he killed younglings,” She has a touch of denial when she goes to Mustafar partly because of her belief in Anakin, but partly because—I think—the Tuskan Massacre was never fully real to her. She understands it intellectually of course, but violence on that scale is difficult to conceptualise without seeing it, especially if it’s easier to just let it go. If she’d seen the bodies? Or seen Anakin kill them? She watched that one refugee kid die slowly, not at all violently, when she was working with the refugee organisation, and it affected her for the rest of her life. It is not a lack of caring on Padmé’s part that’s the problem.
Imagine being Obi-Wan listening to Padme saying “there’s still good in him,” after walking through the Temple, seeing the lightsaber marks on knights and children alike—not even to mention seeing her get strangled. It sounds not only wild, but honestly deeply offensive on more levels than one (besides the obvious issues it’s another, “train the boy,” prioritise Anakin over everything moment, except this time Obi-wan’s entire world has been torn apart, rather than just losing his Master)
If Padmé had actually been a witness to Anakin’s violence? If it was made present and visceral to her?
I think her opinions and her actions would’ve been different.
Thematically, it is crucial that when Luke goes to the second Death Star, he is under no illusions about who Anakin is or what he’s done, and in his most desperate moment he chooses to ask Anakin for help anyway. Padmé goes to him still a bit in denial, still a bit convinced things can return to how they once were. When she starts to push at the illusion, Anakin accuses her of betraying him and strangles her to shut her up, attempting to preserve the illusion (the difference between Anakin’s state at the time of his confrontations with Padmé and Luke is a whole other, very important topic). In part, her illusion allows Anakin to believe he can preserve the past (to be clear—he is the only one responsible for the choice to strangle her; Padme being imperfect is not an excuse for domestic abuse).
Luke’s complete and honest knowledge of Anakin’s worst self means there is nothing for Anakin to lose except his son, exactly as he is. No illusions, no wonderful past, not even any good memories together. Just his son.
To me, that’s one of several reasons (both thematic and logistical) why Padmé’s plea fails where Luke’s succeeds. None of those reasons has anything to do with her being stupid to go in the first place.
(There are some wonderful fanfics out there that show Padmé actually making her disapproval about the Tuskan massacre—both despite and because of her love—actively known during their marriage, and I think that interpretation of her is a stronger character than ROTS gives us, and more in line with what we’re shown in the first movie)
i really love your take on mace & depa's relationship in playing the lyre and i just finished reading shatterpoint, which made me crazy by virtue of mace calling her the daughter he'd never have within the first fifteen pages!! do you happen to have any more general thoughts about what they had going on :0
an opportunity is afoot i get to talk about mace!
i actually really dig mace, and a lot of it is because there's a lot of interesting stuff with him in the legends republic comics, particularly surrounding his relationship to the war and the jedi order and the senate. there's several other extra-canon materials that kind of flesh this idea out further, particularly one segment from a novel (it may be the ROTS novelization?) where obi-wan thinks sadly that the dark side has really clouded mace's sight in the force, because mace says something distrusting of the chancellor, which a) implies insane things about obi-wan and b) implies really cool stuff about mace. so in my head i've kind of tried to delve into that a lot more, which has affected strongly how i see him and by relation depa.
a couple things:
anyway, i say all of that to explain why i think mace is cool, because maybe the reasons i think mace is cool are pretty extrapolated from what we're shown, but that's the fun in doing the fandom thing anyway. as for how this makes me see his relationship with depa, what i have here is a vision of mace that is inherently defined by a protective, watchful urge; he trains depa in vapaad so she can protect herself without him, because, in essence, that's what the entire form is about. i think it's wildly cool that mace invented a Sword Love Language that he and his padawan speak.
one thing that happens a lot in legends - like, a lot a lot - is the idea of jedi stumbling across force sensitive babies and bringing them back to the temple, and because it happens so often, i like to think this is a documented tradition, that jedi who find force sensitive children almost always take that child as a padawan later because the force pushed them together. a lot of lines in legends allude to them thinking of each other as family, or outright say it; i like the idea that this mutual and they're both aware of how strongly they feel for each other, but it's largely unspoken, because, you know, lol, not to get into attachments discourse, but if anakin's love of his mother is considered attachment (and it is), so is depa's love for mace. non-negotiable no debates in the notes haha. leave me be for once please.
but that tension - the truth of this relationship and the fact that they can't help but for it to be true, despite being some of the most accomplished jedi in the order, the fact that i held you when you were a baby, i saved you as a child, but we can't ever say that - really plays into all of the things i already love about mace's role in these extra-canon stories. he has such great moments of being somewhat aware that he's living in a tragedy, from his grief over jedi leaving the order over political philosophy, from his grief in the legends republic comics when he feels responsible for sending quinlan vos into missions he thinks contributed to quinlan's seeming fall to the dark side, his mounting distrust of palpatine and how that one paragraph from obi-wan's point of view would imply that mace was thought less of for voicing that distrust of palpatine. there's a bit in legends where depa picks up a force sensitive child from their parents, to bring to the order; this isn't a rescue, like she personally experienced. and she has a moment where she's like is this right? am i potentially doing something wrong here? and mace reassures her that this is necessary.
but imagine the messy, ooey gooey emotional and ideological conflict that comes in when you embrace the idea that mace himself starts experiencing disillusionment with the republic later down the line; is the war justified? is what the war's doing to the jedi as a whole worth it? is the republic worth saving? the tension of characters who start realizing they're in a tragedy and start poking at its seams is delicious, and it makes mace's death actually a little bit gutting. there goes the frog that realized the water was boiling. the jig is up. i really hate that mace is so often tied into the standard Power Of The Council, like his presence is associated with authority, when there are so many instances of him rightfully questioning it, when there's so much you can extrapolate about mace that makes him pretty fucking cool when you do embrace that conflict, that tension.
this is what i wish fandom understood; conflict makes characters good. to learn about anyone you have to sharpen their personality against a whetstone, see how they respond to it. this is the good stuff. this gives me a picture of a guy staring at his commlink in the middle of the night during the war, thinking of the way depa was crying into his shoulder when he saved her as a child, missing her presence and stuck in this tangled web of circumstances that prevent him from fully realizing how against this he's starting to become. this gives me a picture of a guy who offers asylum to droids - literal weapons of war - because no one sees the effect of this catastrophic violence more than the man who is witness to every funeral, more than the man watching his people kill and be killed. and his reward for his loyalty to the republic in spite of all of this is betrayal. fucking GUTTING. i want to see it ten more times. one of these days i will fuck around and finally write the "mace hits his breaking point and denounces the war to the council, abstaining in protest and this sparks SO MUCH jedi drama" fic i have always wanted to ONE OF THESE DAYS
This recalls for me probably the best (maybe second best idk) moment in the Shatterpoint novel—spoilers ahead because it’s right near the end.
Note: I’m gonna call the darkside the evil-side and the light side the good-side—even though it sounds kind of silly ik—for the reasons noted in the tags.
There’s a moment after Depa has fallen and Mace is having to duel her to get to the controls so he can stop an entire city from being bombed where Mace realises that the only way for him to keep going in the fight and win it is to kill Depa. She is only getting stronger in the evil-side (because of other more complicated stuff going on in the larger fight), while Mace has been stabbed, he’s been going for probably more than 24 hours in and out of constant battles at this point, always making new plans never giving into despair.
So Mace is exhausted, he needs to get to those controls or thousands to millions of people are going to die, and the only way to win the fight is by killing Depa.
But crucially, he also realises that for him, killing Depa would destroy him. As a person, he simply could not do that without drawing on the evil-side.
He can’t win the fight.
He nearly despairs.
He comes to the edge of killing her.
But then he realises something:
The thing telling him that his duel with Depa is the important fight, that killing her is the only way to save those people—that’s the evil-side.
And Mace turns off his lightsaber. If I remember rightly, he won’t turn it back on for the rest of the book.
Instead of fighting Depa, he lays down his sword and retreats. Instead of clashing against her he dodges, backing away, until she puts her own blade through the control panel he needed to get to, and the bombing is stopped.
It’s possible another Jedi could’ve killed their Padawan, mourned her, and remained Good, but not Mace Windu.
And the really magical thing here? The reason this is the best moment?
That’s Luke’s decision too. Almost to the letter.
He faces a person who has given into evil, done terrible things, whom he is personally angry with (Luke staring at his prosthetic and clenching it while standing over Vader is absolutely personal anger—which he ultimately chooses to turn into empathy when he looks at Vader’s own severed hand yeah—do not argue with me here), and whom he loves anyway.
Luke as a person cannot kill Anakin, at least not out of anything but anger and vengeance. Obi-Wan could and did face that choice; he killed Anakin (or thought he did), mourned him, and remained in the light. But Luke couldn’t.
The only non-evil-side action which remained to Luke then, was to lay down his sword and beg his father to save him. Not to kill Vader, or to recklessly begin a duel with Sidious that he couldn’t win (as he did with Vader in ESB), but to realize that the real fight is not the one fought with lightsabers, but the one for his soul and his father’s soul. Anything which says otherwise is the evil-side.
These scenes are practically identical except for one detail:
Luke has Palpatine hanging over his shoulder, representing the evil-side’s interests, saying creepy shit like “good, your hate has made you powerful.” If you look at the scene, the moment Palpatine starts talking is actually what pulls Luke out of his head. He looks at his hand—the one Vader chopped off—then at Vader’s lopped off arm; he sees the cycle of violence forming before his eyes. Then he takes a very visible deep breath and turns around to face Sidious. If Sidious had stfu and waited, I think there’s a decent chance Luke would’ve fallen.
Mace doesn’t have Sidious over his shoulder with his creepy voice and awful little hand to remind him of what genre of story he’s in. He’s alone with Depa and the evil-side, yet he makes the same choice. And this isn’t a criticism of Luke at all—it’s a mark of Mace’s training and experience, and it actually highlights another point of similarity between the scenes:
Depa’s careless lightsaber swing stops the bombing; Sidious tips Luke off to the fact he can’t kill Vader. Evil always undermines itself, and so long as someone chooses good, they can find the weaknesses and defeat it.
That is why good is said to be always stronger than evil in Star Wars—it builds itself up, rather than destroying everything, including itself.
Contrary to people who love to hate, Mace would probably be the person most sympathetic the Luke’s choice, because he made the same one himself. Had he been around, I think he might have openly disagreed with Obi-Wan and Yoda to offer Luke this alternate path.
I do not think it a coincidence that Mace Windu’s death signalled the beginning of the purge, or that the death of—to use @husborth’s words—this ferocious protector was what sealed Anakin’s fall.
Luke’s choice is not some newfangled idea, never thought of before. It is as old as the stars, it is the Good which Luke brings back to the galaxy.
